8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#501

Post by novaleaf » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

rjf72 wrote: post #476

ddebernardy wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I'm in agreement with Popper's view that societies should tolerate everything except intolerance. It draws a fine line between what's acceptable speech and what is not. And going by it, things like 8chan should get shut down. The line of thought you put forward, by contrast, rubs me in a very wrong way. It was used to justify, depending on the period and country, not allowing people to vote on the basis th…

Popper's quote is often quite misconstrued. Here it is, in context: "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we sho…

thank you so much for putting the Popper quote here. This is the first I have heard of it, but it sounds very reasonable.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#502

Post by ddebernardy » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

irrational wrote: post #468

ddebernardy wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I'm in agreement with Popper's view that societies should tolerate everything except intolerance. It draws a fine line between what's acceptable speech and what is not. And going by it, things like 8chan should get shut down. The line of thought you put forward, by contrast, rubs me in a very wrong way. It was used to justify, depending on the period and country, not allowing people to vote on the basis th…

>Popper's tolerance criteria, by contrast, seems clearcut What is that criteria? Because I can easily see people disagreeing on what is and is not intolerant. Would you agree that saying that a baker in Colorado must make a cake for a gay wedding is intolerant of the baker's belief? Because I'm certain a sizeable proportion of the US population would agree that it is intolerant.

Frankly, I don't know what a specific legal criteria might even look like. In fact, I'm not even sure I'd like someone smarter than me with legal street credentials to come up with one.

What I do know is that SCOTUS famously refused to define what porn is [0], and went instead with something to the effect of: I know it when I see it, and this is not it.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

Methinks we as a society can arrive to similar types of rulings for intolerance.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#503

Post by psbmt » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

>Personally I'm in agreement with Popper's view that societies should tolerate everything except intolerance.

That invariably forces the political landscape to move to the left. Which, I guess, is the intended result of holding that point of view.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#504

Post by shultays » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

People keep telling "they are a peivate company, they can serve whoever they". Can they really? Can I open a shop that doesn't serve people with political view X? Or religion? Race?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#505

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

rory096 wrote: post #90

CydeWeys wrote: post #76

We wouldn't tolerate the existence of an Islamist site that glorified and helped perpetrate mass incidents of terror against our society. What 8chan is doing is exactly the same, minus the Islamist part, yet there's hypocrisy in how they're treated vs e.g. the social media wing of ISIS. These people are trying to kill as many of us as possible. In no way should society accept it. It's simple societal self-defense. Ro…

Cloudflare provides services to a number of Islamist terror organizations: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cloudflare-cybersecurity-terr...

Who has a higher body count in the West, Alt-Righters or ISIS?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#506

Post by dcolkitt » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

api wrote: post #347

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

This isn't censorship though. It's private companies refusing to host something. Nobody has been arrested for speech and there are no laws prohibiting speech that isn't overtly and specifically threatening or otherwise violates the "fire in a crowded theater" test.

Imagine an alternate scenario. Say the major tech companies get fed up with Elizabeth Warren's calls to regulate them.

Facebook removes all her groups. Cloudflare shuts down her websites. Youtube removes her videos. Google only leaves anti-Elizabeth Warren search results up, etc. Basically a major presidential candidate is completely locked out of having any pretense on the Internet whatsoever.

How many people who hold the above position, would say "yeah, this is fine. These are just private companies choosing who they want to associate with. Free speech doesn't apply here."

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#507

Post by ShlomoS » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

byuu wrote: post #356

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

Several of these extremist sites even forbid and censor attempts at calm, level-headed rebuttals to such hatred. They exist solely to propagate bigotry. The dog and pony show from Google and Cloudflare of only stepping in after multiple mass shootings and tons of press coverage tells you all you really need to know about these companies' ethics. They react to sufficiently bad PR, not out of any set of principles, be…

[dead]

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#508

Post by Havoc » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

Even the dark corners of the internet need to have limits

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#509

Post by tssva » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

lonelappde wrote: post #438

api wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't censorship though. It's private companies refusing to host something. Nobody has been arrested for speech and there are no laws prohibiting speech that isn't overtly and specifically threatening or otherwise violates the "fire in a crowded theater" test.

Censorship is censorship whether it's done by a national government or not. You are conflating the First Amendment with (anti) censorship.

It is censorship, but there is nothing morally wrong with a private organization or person censoring speech on property they own. They have no obligation legally or morally to participate in speech they disagree with. The immoral act would be to force against their will a private organization or person to participate in speech with which they disagree.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#510

Post by klntsky » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

Smithalicious wrote: post #215

This once again goes to show that you can do nothing illegal and still be virtually locked out of the internet. The viewpoint that "it's okay to kick 8chan off the internet" is not consistent with the viewpoint that "the internet should be neutral infrastructure". Take from that what you will. People are doing the "yada yada not entitled to a platform" thing, but the distinction between free speech and having a platf…

> The viewpoint that "it's okay to kick 8chan off the internet" is not consistent with the viewpoint that "the internet should be neutral infrastructure".

I'd rephrase the first: "it's okay for 8chan to be kicked off the internet, if there is no one who is willing to host it".

> It's like saying "you can say anything you want, but we won't let you use the atmosphere to propagate the sound waves".

And what you are saying is more like "I have the right to say anything I want but I'm too lazy to move the muscles of my face, so everyone (those who I point at, actually, by calling them EVIL MONOPOLIES) MUST help me in this noble mission of spreading the truth".