8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#111

Post by jonny_eh » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

harryh wrote: post #65

commanderjroc wrote: post #6

I guess you could say that free speech has limits that are acceptable. You know you can't yell fire in a crowded room and not get litigation and charges brought against you. So, maybe 8chan just ran past the fine line of hate speech vs encouraging acts of hate. I.e you can be racist but you cannot encourage acts of extremism. If 8Chan was a breeding ground for Islamic Extremists would people be okay with still existi…

Did you know that the "fire in a crowded room" metaphor comes from Schenck v. United States in which Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr used the metaphor to defend the criminality of protesting the military draft? I'm not sure if that's the kind of history you want to align yourself with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States

The justice's analogy in that case was bad, but otherwise it would have been a good argument.

If speech is meant to directly lead to harm, it should be constrained.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#112

Post by onezerozeroone » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #30

IMHO this reflects poorly on CloudFlare. The supreme court has ruled time and time again that the right to free speech implies the right to be heard. While CloudFlare obviously isn't legally required to serve 8chan, the only service they are really providing is making it so that 8chan can't be DDOS'd. And DDOS'ing is very clearly a tactic that violates the first amendment. So really by no longer serving 8chan, the on…

It's been ruled private companies can discriminate against homosexuals by refusing to provide service to them (ie: a wedding cake). Also been ruled you can discriminate against customers based on religious beliefs (ie: refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control) see “religious refusal” and “conscience protection” laws.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#113

Post by jredwards » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:21 PM UTC

RandomTisk wrote: post #19

yters wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't go away, but censorship will probably reduce the incidence to violence.

All that does is ensure racists and violent people only get to speak in echo chambers.

These places are already echo chambers. That's how the speech gets so fringe in the first place.

De-platforming fractures the echo chambers and forces the population to find newer, smaller echo chambers, which reduces the impact of each echo.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#114

Post by danielrhodes » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:21 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #30

IMHO this reflects poorly on CloudFlare. The supreme court has ruled time and time again that the right to free speech implies the right to be heard. While CloudFlare obviously isn't legally required to serve 8chan, the only service they are really providing is making it so that 8chan can't be DDOS'd. And DDOS'ing is very clearly a tactic that violates the first amendment. So really by no longer serving 8chan, the on…

I think you are right that the government has showed a lot of restraint in dipping its toes into this problem, and that might be a good thing. However, Cloudflare in shutting off 8chan, has not violated anybody's free speech.

The constitution only applies to the government's relationship with its people. Only the government can violate a citizen's constitutional rights. Other individuals (or companies) cannot violate another person's constitutional rights. Cloudflare, in ceasing its relationship with 8chan, is not impeding on their first amendment rights.

Even so, the first amendment is not a blanket right to say whatever you want or incite violence. The first amendment is much narrower than you may realize, and in the narrowest (most protected) case, only applies to political speech. Hate speech is definitely not protected.

While 8chan, as an operator, is not directly responsible for what happens on their site, they start taking on liability when they are knowingly aware of and take no action against people who are using the site for criminal activity. The same goes for a landlord who knowingly lets his/her house be used for criminal activity, such as crack house.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#115

Post by pavel_lishin » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:21 PM UTC

buildzr wrote: post #105

CydeWeys wrote: post #76

We wouldn't tolerate the existence of an Islamist site that glorified and helped perpetrate mass incidents of terror against our society. What 8chan is doing is exactly the same, minus the Islamist part, yet there's hypocrisy in how they're treated vs e.g. the social media wing of ISIS. These people are trying to kill as many of us as possible. In no way should society accept it. It's simple societal self-defense. Ro…

> We wouldn't tolerate the existence of an Islamist site that glorified and helped perpetrate mass incidents of terror against our society. Speak for yourself, I would. I've downloaded and distributed ISIS propaganda videos before out of sheer intrigue. Just because someone says something you don't like doesn't mean you should ban it. Of course, this will be downvoted to hell because this is a hot topic at the moment…

Why?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#116

Post by ethbro » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:21 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #50

nilkn wrote: post #4

I've generally been on the free speech side of this debate, as some of my previous comments on HN will show. With 8chan, I legitimately don't know what my opinion is. I've read it before, and I spent a few hours reading it this weekend, and it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists. I'm not referring to the simple use of racial or ethnic slurs -- of course this…

I think I'm on the same boat as you on this one; I tend to have a pretty libertarian view on free speech, but lately the bizarre rise of hyper-radical idiots on places like 8chan (and even YouTube to a lesser extent) has really made me question these things. It's very easy to shout the mantra of "Free speech!!! OMG!!!" but we gain nothing by acting like there aren't natural consequences to it. By having a liberal fre…

I call this Confederate flag behavior.

There are a huge number of people who claim they support the Confederate flag in honor of those who lost their lives under it.

Okay. It was a racist and oppressive government, but I can understand that logic. People gave their lives, and even sacrifice in favor of an unjust cause is sacrifice.

That said... if that's what it's really about for them, then why didn't those folks say something when the flag was claimed by racists and white supremacists? Why didn't they defend it from those who would appropriate the symbol?

Silence carries its own liability.

And a lot of 8chan-style behavior that isn't guilty of outright instigation is certainly guilty of immoral silence.

Source: living in a southern US state

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#117

Post by harryh » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:21 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #104

harryh wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that the "fire in a crowded room" metaphor comes from Schenck v. United States in which Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr used the metaphor to defend the criminality of protesting the military draft? I'm not sure if that's the kind of history you want to align yourself with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States

You aren't aligning yourself with that by using the fire in a crowded room metaphor.

My point is that the phrase has a history of being used to criminalize speech that most people would now see as being worthy of protection. For those using it today, the burden is really on the accuser to show that they aren't doing the same.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#118

Post by komali2 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:22 PM UTC

eridius wrote: post #79

nilkn wrote: post #4

I've generally been on the free speech side of this debate, as some of my previous comments on HN will show. With 8chan, I legitimately don't know what my opinion is. I've read it before, and I spent a few hours reading it this weekend, and it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists. I'm not referring to the simple use of racial or ethnic slurs -- of course this…

> it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists I mean, it literally radicalized white supremacist terrorists . There's no "had the potential" anymore, it's a fact. It also sounds like it held plenty of child porn, so I don't understand why it took until now for anyone to do anything about the site.

CP gets knocked off the board fast. 4chan and 8chan know the line, though it is in a weird place (it probably should be on the other side of "fomenting white supremacy")

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#119

Post by dwaltrip » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:22 PM UTC

DrDimension wrote: post #92

danharaj wrote: post #15

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the deaths of others your right to say it." How many free speech absolutists have "skin in the game", or whatever? Every alternative to censorship suggested always puts the burden on the victimized. Like, "if you debate it in public you will defeat these bad ideas". Few who are free speech absolutists roll up their sleeves and volunteer to take the action they presc…

The truth is that information does not radicalize people - censorship does. That's why the channers are as radicalized as they are - they've been censored everywhere else. Censor their last remaining outlets and you will increase violence by orders of magnitude. If ethno-nationalists are not allowed to make their political case with speech, what alternative would they have but violence? You obviously can't change the…

One alternative is that many of them give up the idea of taking action.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#120

Post by LargeWu » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:22 PM UTC

Can any free speech absolutists explain to me the legitimate public interest that is served by allowing terrorist breeding grounds like 8chan to continue to operate?