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Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

taxwatchuk.org

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Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#131

Post by xzel »

oconnor663 wrote: post #106
mattmanser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. That's how change happens. It's still perfectly legal to destroy the environment in many ways, it doesn't mean we can't complain about it. If we don't talk about it, nothing happens.

No one designed the environment to be destroyed. But tax laws are often designed precisely to incentivize people to behave in a certain way. If we raise taxes on cigarettes, and then people smoke less, and tax revenue goes down, does anyone complain? Of course not; that's why we raised taxes on cigarettes. Now sometimes you have tax laws that are poorly designed, where we don't like what happens when people follow th…

> No one designed the environment to be destroyed. But tax laws are often designed precisely to incentivize people to behave in a certain way. If we raise taxes on cigarettes, and then people smoke less, and tax revenue goes down, does anyone complain? Of course not; that's why we raised taxes on cigarettes.

Ah yes a terrible example for the argument you're trying to make. In NYC bodega's sell cigarette "illegally" imported from VA. It doesn't and hasn't stopped people from smoking, at all. It's a vanity bill. Also, it helps generate revenue because most people from outside of the city won't have a bodega that will sell them untaxed cigs, which is always the easiest way to pass taxes, have a non-local pay them. Does government run lotto help stop gambling? No, they just want a piece of the pie.

In general, the average income tax law (the basic stuff) isn't poorly designed, its just under enforced and the extra tax law makes the rest very difficult to work with. Right now, what is poorly designed in tax code is the effect of increased globalization, software and international tax treaties/law. a Also, not paying your taxes when you're using government benefits should be criticized, 100%. For example, Walmart formerly not paying a living wage and making the tax payers support some of their employees, while the founders kids are all billionaires, is totally broken.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#132

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

slaymaker1907 wrote: post #127
FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

I think this kind of reasoning needs to be questioned since the mechanisms available to large corporations and the wealthy completely outclass those available to less wealthy citizens and small business. Additionally, despite the delusion that some companies and individuals may have, they damn well do have similar and perhaps greater obligation to work towards the betterment of society. For some reason, we seem to th…

Don't make the mistake of equating paying more tax with the betterment of society.

I think it was PJ O'Rourke who said something like giving money and power to politicians is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#133

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

Do you mean to say that complaining about laws is ridiculous?

That doesn't seem like an argument someone would intentionally make.

It should be obvious to anyone that some laws are unjust, insufficient, or overbearing.

It's up to us to have these conversations, and push our own, or our collective, agendas.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#134

Post by jontro »

Operyl wrote: post #4

I, unfortunately, can't really blame the company for doing something that's legal. They're literally just doing what's best for the company's shareholders, and they'd be yelled at for doing anything otherwise. If we want this fixed, our lawmakers need to change the laws.

I don't think skimming countries of 1.1bn would be considered legal

"The company is currently under investigation by tax authorities in the UK, Sweden and France over alleged transfer pricing irregularities and is is facing a potential bill of over $1.1bn in back taxes and penalties."

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#135

Post by rolltiide »

if anyone wants a slightly deeper discussion can someone tell me honestly, how is Activision Blizzard they fucking this up?

They settled with the US government to the tune of $300 million over this setup, and European area governments are seeking $1.1 billion.

Setting up transfer pricing arrangement to tax havens literally involves paying kickbacks to the IRS via an advance pricing agreement before you start doing the IP revenue games.

Something went wrong.

My guess is that there also was some incompetence outside of the APA arrangement. I would see new employees interpreting something in a more and more warped way getting this messed up, along with incompetence in the island countries used changing rules under their feet.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#136

Post by rolltiide »

jayd16 wrote: post #29
rolltiide wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which applies whether the stated tax rate is 1% or 75%, so a practically useless response unless the idea is that any written tax rate is moral if it comes from the government, which also means any legal means to mitigate the tax rate is also moral because it comes from the government

Morality exists outside of what the law states. You're suggesting that because you can imagine both a too strict and too lenient law, morality is an impossible concept?

> You're suggesting that because you can imagine both a too strict and too lenient law, morality is an impossible concept?

no, not enough information has been provided to make that decision and that grandparent-OP should elaborate on their stance

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#137

Post by downrightmike »

shaftoe wrote: post #5
Operyl wrote: post #4

I, unfortunately, can't really blame the company for doing something that's legal. They're literally just doing what's best for the company's shareholders, and they'd be yelled at for doing anything otherwise. If we want this fixed, our lawmakers need to change the laws.

Curse them for not wanting to pay extra money for no gain. How dare they act out of a rational self interest.

While they take advantage of loot box gambling to minors.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#138

Post by ckris »

oconnor663 wrote: post #106
mattmanser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. That's how change happens. It's still perfectly legal to destroy the environment in many ways, it doesn't mean we can't complain about it. If we don't talk about it, nothing happens.

No one designed the environment to be destroyed. But tax laws are often designed precisely to incentivize people to behave in a certain way. If we raise taxes on cigarettes, and then people smoke less, and tax revenue goes down, does anyone complain? Of course not; that's why we raised taxes on cigarettes. Now sometimes you have tax laws that are poorly designed, where we don't like what happens when people follow th…

That is more one type of tax, being punitive taxes. Laws used in tax avoidance are generally designed to make things easier. The flaw isn't usually in the host country (the US is sort of an exception), but more a feature in the tax haven. A simplistic version would be that you say "we shouldn't pay tax here, but there" and then you don't pay much tax there either, because the tax haven is in on it. But you can argue that there are many parties also in the host country who are just as in on it. There are just plenty of people who support that powerful people shouldn't pay much tax, and sometimes they manage to convince everyone else.

But overall you can't really stop anyone doing almost anything. If people don't want large companies to pay taxes, or favor property values instead of building more housing, or reward working in finance instead of engineering so be it. Just don't come and complain a few decades later when everyone is greedy and things are falling apart. Because if moving money around is the way to make money successful companies are going to be just as good at that as anything else.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#139

Post by CapitalistCartr »

FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread."

--Anatole France

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#140

Post by plufz »

FDSGSG wrote: post #11
mattmanser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. That's how change happens. It's still perfectly legal to destroy the environment in many ways, it doesn't mean we can't complain about it. If we don't talk about it, nothing happens.

The problem isn't with the corporations, the problem (if it exists at all!) may be with the legislation. Complain about the law. E: CogitoCogito is absolutely right, there are companies spending lots of money around the world to push these regulations. I just seriously doubt that Activision Blizzard is one of these.

Why can’t we complain about both the laws and the companies? I will complain when companies make low quality products, treat their staff badly or whatever. If our only requirement on companies is to follow the law I think we are setting the bar extremely low.
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