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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of years ago, the company I worked for abruptly went out of business (like, I came into work on Monday and they said, “we’re closed effectively immediately, go home, we’ll e-mail you severance details”). I sent out about a dozen resumes, got two interviews, flunked the first and got an offer at the second - the whole process took about two weeks and I was no longer unemployed. I was on good terms with one of…

Yup, I know an engineering director who had a similar story. It took him about 8 months to find a new job. He did ultimately get another engineering director job though.

Which is fairly common, and often why compensation packages for folks in those positions are structured the way they are.

The assumption is that someone leaving a director/VP level position will not find another job quickly.

They often have severance agreements that provide either large lump sum payouts to cover them while they look, or multi-month notice that they're being let go (I've seen 3 months and 12 months, with the expectation being that they'll continue in an advisory position and draw salary during that time, but focus mostly on job hunting).

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

One thing I've noticed is that there seem to be a lot more older developers and engineers at hardware-oriented companies. I currently work at Wing Aviation, the Alphabet drone delivery company. We were originally located in the Google X building, which is the old Mayfield Mall in Mountain View. I used to shop at that mall in the 1970s! X is full of hardware startups, and when I started there I noticed one thing right…

I mean, I feel like more programmers were working closer to the metal back in the day.

In the 80s you needed to understand computer hardware much better and there was a bigger fraction of C++ developers. Now all those people have migrated to hardware (or have kept doing it) because that's where their skills are needed.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#214
I'm 42 and still coding. I have a lot of rambly thoughts. . . .

I love programming and don't want to go into management, but it becomes really hard to keep upping your salary after the first 5-8 years or so. (And isn't it silly how many job ads for "senior engineers" ask for 3-5 years of experience?) I could join a FAANG but I don't really want to.

You do keep getting better, even when you keep changing the tech. It feels almost unfair that I started on the web in the early 90s (and was coding long before that) so I got to progress along with today's complexity, starting with early HTML, CGIs, debugging HTTP & SMTP with telnet, supporting IE 5 Javascript & CSS, building websites with Perl & Python run from an in-house app server we built in C, on & on. You can go way down the stack and debug things quickly. You know all the junction points to do a binary search on where a bug is happening. Your intuition is well-honed. You have lots of perspective and good judgment. You get better at seeing the big picture, including crossing from the tech stuff to the business.

Back around 2005 I started doing freelance development ("and consulting"), and that has been a great path for me. I earn more, I work from home, I don't live in the Bay Area, I get more responsibility and respect and variety and control. I've neglected to follow most of the patio11 and tptacek best practices, at least most of the time, but I'm still happy with how I'm doing. I've raised my rates a lot, and should probably raise them again. (At the moment I have four customers who all wish I'd give them 40+ hrs/wk. . . .)

I'd like to experiment with value consulting. I'm much better at estimating than other devs will admit to.

My Plan A has been to start my own dev partnership, although it's been hard to find the right people to get it off the ground. I really like Managing the Professional Service Firm by David Maister, and I think the partner/associates model has great potential for making programming viable as a life-long career.

I haven't tried hiring any people (full time or as contractors), except occasionally designers. Maybe I will soon but then you bill less yourself, you have to sell more, you have to manage them and their work, and of course you have to find people willing to charge less than you. (Tech is obviously supply-constrained right now, so getting good workers at a low cost is the #1 competitive advantage. Like everyone else, I believe I can recognize good developers when I meet them, but I don't really have any great process or insights to make that part of a business plan.)

The longer you do it the more T-shaped you become. Eventually your T has more than one vertical line. :-) But still you kind of have to pick one focus to advertise, if only for credibility reasons. I say my specialties are Rails, relational databases, and devops. But then I also do lots of Python, Angular, and React, and I'm happy doing Java or C, even Android & iOS. Right now I'm almost full-time with C#. :-/

I've enjoyed finding researchy outlets for my spare time. In my case it's temporal databases, but there are so many other cool things happening. I wish I had forty lifetimes to explore them all.

I'm glad I've fended off management so far. I've still had to learn lots about sales, finances, project management, contracts, collaborating, leadership, etc. I already spend plenty of time in Jira, customer meetings, and code reviews.

Probably ageism matters less when you're independent. For one thing there are no 8-hour on-site interviews (even though you cost more!).

Anyway, I'm 42 and coding all day, and I'm very happy. I feel totally lucky to be in this career. I feel tremendous gratitude to our community. HN, Open Source, Linux, bloggers, O'Reilly, Stack Overflow, tech meetups, tech companies, friends & colleagues: all have given me so much.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#215

Ok I'll bite. I had the realization yesterday that I peaked at 25 (I'm 42). I got my computer engineering degree in 1999 and used to do things like really complicated integrations in calculus, and solve weird 3D intersection formulas for different variables to do change of coordinates on various surfaces for rasterizing before wolframalpha.com was a thing. I look at my invention lists from 20 years ago and they were…

> If I'm depressed then it's environmental

I agree.

Please apply to twilio, we need more people like you https://www.twilio.com/company/jobs#open-positions

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#216
I started working as a programmer, and for all practical purposes started programming, at age 37. I'm over 50 now. The vast majority of my professional career has been spent in violation of this article's thesis. https://www.rosshartshorn.net/RossHartshornResume.pdf A better take on it would be, "don't expect to be able to avoid learning new stuff every few years, just like younger devs".

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the actual work of being a developer/programmer in a professional setting is a really shitty job and sad life The thing is, it doesn't have to be and, until relatively recently, honestly wasn't. It's a shitty job and a sad life because we have open offices, ticket-tracking systems and daily standups. There was a time when programming was exciting and rewarding.

I would add code reviews to that. The advent of those was when it really stopped being fun for me, because it's really hard to keep that from turning into "your boss nitpicking every line you write."

Code review is one of those things where the culture around reviewing and the experience of the reviewers makes all the difference.

A code review where the boss reviews code is pathological. When experienced peers do the review it can be brilliant.

In fact I would only trust a team of very competent seniors not to need code review. Even then, getting another opinion on your code can be worth it.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#218
post #140

Btw, by 40, shouldn't most of us be able to retire if desired?

You assume “we” all start at 25.

That is the basis of the assumption of 40 as a boundary as well, isn't it? I don't think most people really believe there is some biological limit of 40 for programming, but more an apparent shelf-life for your run of the mill programming career. This all strikes me as a specific case of the more general character of any ~20 year or "generational" endeavor.

You experience phases of intellectual and social stimulation, and your response is probably somewhat stereotyped as a normally functioning human. I think it is a bit more acute if you are also doing this in a cohort with many of your peers in the same phase at the same time. Things like the "hype cycle" are observations about these effects in a population or market as a whole, but are rooted in the similar experience of the individual participant.

So, I might rephrase it as: you should give some thought to subsequent phases of your life, and not expect this one to go on indefinitely. There will be changes. The only choice is whether you attempt to steer the changes and/or mitigate the challenges that might be beyond your control...

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#219
post #142

This is a replay of a comment I wrote several years ago to the same topic: I'm 60+. I've been coding my whole career and I'm still coding. Never hit a plateau in pay, but nonetheless, I've found the best way to ratchet up is to change jobs which has been sad, but true - I've left some pretty decent jobs because somebody else was willing to pay more. This has been true in every decade of my career. There's been a cons…

I love your comment and can back you on your last point. I know plenty of people who are very successful because they took the time to become experts on some industry that also aligns well with programming. Compare:

Person A has become one of the world's ten foremost experts on the GPS system and other industry-critical location/positioning technologies. She is also a good, above-average programmer but nothing special.

Person B is an academic, a master of C++ who can recite chapter and verse from the language standards and writes bug-free code. He can point out undefined behavior, implementation-defined behavior, and memory leaks with ease in code reviews. He builds entire systems using template metaprogramming and is already an expert on C++28.

Person C is a highly productive generalist. His career jumped from a bank to an enterprise company to an operating system vendor to an online store. Always working on API-to-API middleware, expertly pushing Protobufs and JSON around and designing vast systems, but never gaining any expertise in an actual application topic.

Person A is going to be much more marketable later on in life, assuming she placed her bet on the right industry vertical. Person B and C may have good, successful early careers, but are often at risk of being replaced by Yet-Another-Protobuf-Slinger fresh out of college. Be as good a programmer as you can, but also build up knowledge of the business or detailed knowledge of a specific technology application that you know is not going away.

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