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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#161
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> grinding away at a FANG I've started to propose we s/FANG/Big N/g "FANG" leaves off other obvious big companies, e.g. Uber, and it wouldn't scale to keep trying to add them to the acronym. Here N is used like when one talks about a list "N items long"

Uber and Lyft don’t belong on any “Big N” list until they show a profit rather than pissing away billions a year.

But that highlights the inconsistent usage of the term. Often it's used to just mean "a company with a lot of engineers with similar practices and culture"

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#162
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen to all that. OA> Herein is the source of the problem. The more irrelevant experience a candidate has, the more lopsided the utility/value equation becomes… No, the source of the problem is the idea that 10 years of “C++ experience” is “irrelevant” to a project using Rails, as if development experience is somehow locked to the language you happened to do the development in. Being a valuable senior developer is ab…

I think a lot of problems some older developers have is that the culture has shifted. Maybe I'm off the mark, but I feel like older devs come from a world where programming was all about programming and it was less a formal career than it is now. To succeed in programming, you have to work well in a business. You can't be Linus Torvalds, walking around with a big ego, unless you're so important it's hard to get rid o…

There's a big difference between being a developer and a programmer. Wrote about it here:

http://www.mooreds.com/wordpress/archives/871

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#163

Age discrimination is absolutely a thing, but (and this is only based on anecdata) I would say it is much, much worse in the valley than just about anywhere else. The rest of the world seems to have a less damaged culture.

I’m in Portugal and everyone who’s moved their tech hubs here in the past 2 years is only hiring juniors. And we’re talking about a mix of big companies (who ought to know better) and relatively fresh (<5y) startups.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#164
post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

> I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM? Still rocking it 20 years after.

Java may not be my favorite language, but I respect how the language has both progressed and maintained its heritage. It allows the developer to build upon their skills rather than relearning nearly identical skills every time a new technology comes out.

The problem is that this 70 year old industry still behaves in very immature ways. While this may be acceptable when it comes down to attitudes towards technology, the unfortunate side-effect seems to be the adoption of similar attitudes towards people.

Every time someone says something like, "young people are more in tune with the current state of technology," or, "old people are more capable because they have more experience," they are legitimizing prejudice. That's true even when the statement is being made in an attempt to combat prejudice since it is applying generalizations to individuals.

Granted, it is very difficult to shed generalizations. Just look at my comment about the immaturity of the industry. That isn't universally true. Some companies are going to have a younger workforce, some older, some heterogeneous. Some companies are going to have old people working with old technologies, some are going to have young people working with young technologies, but some are going to have the young with old technologies and vice versa. Yet the generalization comes about because of how we frame the industry, which is one where the new replaces the old.

Which brings me back to why I respect Java: it looks both towards the future and back at the past. It is language of growth, rather than a language of revolution. Perhaps this inanimate technology has something to teach us about how we regard people: we should be encouraging growth and advancement rather than treating people as disposable.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#165
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen to all that. OA> Herein is the source of the problem. The more irrelevant experience a candidate has, the more lopsided the utility/value equation becomes… No, the source of the problem is the idea that 10 years of “C++ experience” is “irrelevant” to a project using Rails, as if development experience is somehow locked to the language you happened to do the development in. Being a valuable senior developer is ab…

I think a lot of problems some older developers have is that the culture has shifted. Maybe I'm off the mark, but I feel like older devs come from a world where programming was all about programming and it was less a formal career than it is now. To succeed in programming, you have to work well in a business. You can't be Linus Torvalds, walking around with a big ego, unless you're so important it's hard to get rid o…

I agree with your premise but not your reasons. personally I'm a programmer - I know enough about business to know I don't have good insight.

everyone I talk to doesn't want* a programmer in the older sense. they want people to integrate external large packages. they don't want to to test, they want to prop something up and see if it makes money. they don't want to talk about architecture and features and make plans - they just want to respond on a dime to what the market is saying.

without any value judgement - I personally don't have a lot to offer in that environment. and to varying degrees I think the hiring managers understand that (sadly, quite a number don't)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#167
This sounds dramatic and dire but I feel like the reason for the statistic is that by the 20 year mark in someone's career, if they're working for a big corporation, they've likely been promoted to management if they have any social skills at all.

Not because they can't program anymore, but because corporations try to promote people to management if they've been around a while and haven't screwed up, and they tend to pay them more if they accept.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#168

This is generally true. It's a combination of many things, from brain "degradation", ageism, simple economic math ( fresh meat is cheaper and more malleable ), other more important interests like having a real life and when you really mute all the marketing BS, your delusions and wishful thinking, the actual work of being a developer/programmer in a professional setting is a really shitty job and sad life for the maj…

>the actual work of being a developer/programmer in a professional setting What is a "professional setting" in this context?

Sitting in front of a computer for years, trying to fix mundane problems, bugs, implement very important and urgent features that are very useless and not really urgent.

You know, being the brick mason of yet another cathedral of delusions and failure as most business are. Which is life and I don't really have a problem with that.

But we are all human and after a decade of this shit, it gets hollow and meaningless.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#169
post #11

What are some common Plan Bs?

Starting law school next week!

Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire! Unless you have a guaranteed biglaw job lined up, and you enjoy 80 hours weeks necessary to survive as an associate in biglaw, becoming an attorney has far worse income and prospects than being a developer.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is 100% a colloquialism..

Meaning what?

Urban Dictionary is useful for looking up suggested meanings of colloquialisms. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mirin
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