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High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

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Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a trans woman, I agree this needs more study, and I have experienced something similar. And I'd like to have a word with whoever downvoted this.

> And I'd like to have a word with whoever downvoted this. Why? The comment is essentially: "I read someone claiming something one time." It has no sources, no links to anything to explore or understand, nothing. There's not even a link to the article or story. Just someone making a wild statement on the internet.

Evidence from someone who has experience with particular medical condition, who has been living with it for years, is not 'ancedotal', it is local knowledge. It might not be accurate, but it's often a good place to begin actual scientific investigation. This isn't a wild statement; it's something I've personally suspected for years, and I'd like to see research around.

But just pointing this out cost me -2 karma, which is -- again, anecdotally -- an example of how Hacker News is a toxic environment for marginalized folks.

I'd love to see some studies on that too.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#122

I'd take this with... not quite a grain of salt, but maybe a small dose of healthy skepticism. Simon Baron-Cohen is a legitimate and respected researcher, but he's well known in autism research circles as pushing very hard a theory that autism is a manifestation of an "extreme male brain", which is a theory that almost every other significant researcher in the field disagrees with. I'd suggest taking a critical view…

It sounds like this is evidence for that view then. Why is the researcher's theory relevant to results that support that theory?

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical practitioners aren't on a platonic quest for truth when they make diagnoses. They're generally trying to separate out those who would benefit from treatment. Physical tests aren't often that useful for mental conditions, so official diagnostic criteria often has a section about how the observed traits and behaviors cause problems for the patient at home, in school, or at work. Furthermore, people simply don't…

Thank you for that clarification, that is my rough understanding of mental health having been sent to a whole mess of shrinks. I guess what my ultimate misunderstanding is: > One complicating factor that I put into every thread about random things being associated with autism How is that a complicating factor in discovering causes themselves? If someone has the Foo and Bar factors that cause autism, but has otherwise…

Subclinical is the right word for that, yeah.

>How is that a complicating factor in discovering causes themselves?

The study links the factor under study to autism diagnosis, rather than some hypothetical "true" rate of autism that includes undiagnosed and subclinical cases. Ten IQ points can be the difference between otherwise-identical autistics barely passing a class versus failing it and getting referred to a psychologist. Or after getting referred, the difference between qualifying for a diagnosis or not.

The latter actually happened to me personally in elementary school: I had held my pen funny in a way that made my hand hurt after a while, and my teacher referred me for refusing to complete a handwritten class assignment. They did a test on various types of school subjects, and I ranked a bit above grade level in some and far above grade level on others. If I was a grade lower in each subject and thus had below grade level scores, I'd've gotten an official diagnosis of some kind of subject-specific learning disability. But instead, there wasn't enough of a problem to need to do stuff, and doing stuff costs money, so they basically shrugged their shoulders and sent me on my way.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#124
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the soy idea has been debunked for some time now. The main external estrogen source is milk and to some extend meat products.

Fake news! Soy has orders of magnitude more estrogen than animal products, even the hormone-implanted ones. > The 1.9 nanograms of estrogen in implanted beef is also minuscule compared to 225 nanograms of estrogen in potatoes, 340 nanograms of estrogen in peas, 520 nanograms of estrogen in ice cream, 2,000 nanograms of estrogen in cabbage, 11,250 nanograms of estrogen in soy milk, and 170,000 nanograms of estrogen in…

Not quite, because while you are talking about estrogen in beef and birth control pills (Diane 35, presumably), you are talking about phytoestrogens in soy milk & co, and specifically isoflavones.

Phytoestrogens have a similar structure to estrogen, and can thus bind to the estrogen receptors, but they have only a weak estrogenic effect (the opposite might actually happen). The effect of isoflavones, at least, has been studied [1], finding "no significant effect" on "T, SHBG, free T, or FAI" - this despite the trials featuring subjects whose "soy protein and isoflavone intake greatly exceeded typical dietary Japanese intake", which was said to range from "25 to 50 mg" in Japanese adults.

What effect isoflavones have might be debated, but that comparison remains apples to oranges. A daily dose of estrogen greater than 25 to 50 mg would definitely have an effect. Even a tenth of that would have a very noticeable effect. It doesn't, so just saying "170'000 ng per serving" tells us nothing, not when the comparison includes birth control pills.

Hell, that comparison would even remain apples to orange if you just compared animal estrogens, or those estrogens that can be found in pill form. Diane 35 contains ethinylestradiol, which is much more potent than conjugated estrogens (Premarin & co) or micronized estradiol (Estrace): while 95% of the estrogen you ingest is going to be inactivated, ethinylestradiol bypasses most of that.

Isoflavones do not, they also undergo first-pass metabolism, so the comparison is doubly flawed.

[1] https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.fertnstert.2009.04.038

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#126
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an odd comment since hormones are the result of gene expression.

IMO gene expression is very different than what layman like myself mean when we talk about our genes.

OK, fair point.

In order for genes to have any impact on an organism they need to be expressed. And it's expression that creates the enzymes that create hormones. So it's hard to separate those two.

Environmental exposure can change how genes are expressed and thus hormones.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#128
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I had no idea the rate was so high. I’ve seen one study[1] that sampled for ~7%, but not 25%. Do you have a link I could read? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/

Interesting, even at 7%, this autistic population could be creating the unfavorable perceptions of trans women and confirming people’s pre-existing beliefs of mental health issues because enough of their quirky or negative experiences with trans women are “just” with autistic people As in, one circumstance is being conflated with another circumstance and this is counterproductive for everyone

> because enough of their quirky or negative experiences with trans women are “just” with autistic people

While I hate to agree with this, it is also my opinion as a transgender woman myself.

I also believe that the percentage of trans people who are also part of the spectrum and who are in online support groups is even higher than 7%.

Often, they are quirky people who have difficulty expressing their opinions, points of view and identity. They often seem rude and frustrated. They are very passionate about the subject of gender identity and will make far-fetched statements and present them as facts. This results in very embarrassing interactions.

Personally, I can't stand their quirks and I often have negative experiences with them. These users will take up all the space and drive other users away.

My favorite Facebook support group is the result of two of these "migrations". The first group was huge and became "unstable", so a few people created a second one. After a while, some of the users from the first group found the second one so a third group was created. This group is set to invitation only and has around twenty users.

Many people approach me as if I was autistic, which I am not and it is frustrating at best.

This is very taboo and most people will not talk about it. You cannot deny support to people on the spectrum, but I wish they had their own spaces.

I would bet that most of the socially awkward encounters people have with trans individuals is just that. It's people interacting with people with autism. Being transgender is about finding and expressing your gender identity. Puberty is always awkward for anyone involved at first but most people grow out of it and become adults and this is no different for a second puberty.

Being stuck in-between, unable to express one's identity in a socially acceptable way is not a symptom of gender dysphoria, it is a symptom of the autistic spectrum disorder.

If people were more aware of this, they could act accordingly. Just because someone is on the spectrum doesn't mean that they are invalid in their trans identity. It simply means that they have their own needs and require a different mindset.

I understand that this is going to come across as very controversial. It is not my goal to belittle anyone and this is merely my anecdotal point of view as someone from within those communities.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#129
post #66
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't you classify what you described as early trauma - highly stressful situation? I ask because I would have been considered Asperger's as a child, however was never formally diagnosed, and I had I'd call traumatic, a few childhood experiences with severe pain. It was however a series of events in my early 20s lead me to developing a severe hypersensitivity to sound, which then through trying to problem solve, d…

Hard to clarify, and just earliest memories and maybe trauma solidified those event in memory, really hard to speculate even from personal experience. Also of note I was diagnosed officially in my late 40's, I was tested for autism when I was 5 (remember that vividly) and they deemed me 50/50, which in the 60's - autism was either yes or no with no aspergers or other half-way definitions. Interesting how you mention…

What you've said overall makes me think you're hypersensitive to sound - and that if you can afford a ~$50 USD hearing test/audiogram to check for imbalances in your hearing then it'd be worthwhile confirming that; it's not a standard audiogram, you'd have to call around to ask and find out if they know what that is - and is meant for use with Berard's Auditory Integration Training) which then can confirm imbalances. Imbalances showing at certain frequencies is actually just a signal that something is blocked function wise, not processing how it should, as your brain and body is a system of homeostasis that wants to find equilibrium at all times - so it should be able to equalize the perception of sound (save actual damage to the hearing); yes, damage is also a possibility, or both. There's a book on it called "Hearing Equals Behaviour: Updated and Expanded" on Amazon - has original book within it.

Do you remember having ear infections as a child, and were they painful at all?

Re: Falling asleep - what you've said regarding sleep is another proof point to me that you likely have a hearing imbalance. I found the comment on HN I made going into more detail on theory of how it works - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13657973 - and in it I explain why your brain may not be able to actually stop paying attention to sound, which of course - a natural cycle of falling asleep - will have your senses slowly diminish until you're asleep and not not getting strong signals from them, or rather not reacting to them - making it difficult to fall asleep.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#130
post #9

BPA mimics estrogen, so does that mean that plastics are causing autism? https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/publichealth/...

There's also the soy-estrogen link, and soy is in everything. I don't know what the truth is regarding soy estrogens, because it's one of those things where searching brings up reams of pseudo-scientific garbage.

There is no soy estrogen link. If there were we'd be seeing an epidemic of hormone based pathologies nearly everywhere. Soy is a staple and has been for centuries and centuries.
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