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Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

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Re: Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

#71

Post by zonidjan »

reaperducer wrote: post #52
robbiet480 wrote: post #38

I tried to get Sonic at 100 Grand Avenue in Oakland after they put fliers on homes and businesses all around saying "We are coming to Oakland with our own fiber and offering gigabit!" (they have been in Oakland for a long time with their AT&T DSL product). Turns out, they decided to not install to my building (254 unit high-rise), most likely due to a, what I believe to be, illegal exclusive line ownership agreement…

illegal exclusive line ownership agreement that my commercial landlords signed with AT&T. Exclusive, yes. Illegal? Not really. Every apartment building I've lived in has had an agreement with one provider. They don't want to rip open the walls for every company that wants to put in a line. And these days with the way internet providers come and go, I don't blame them. If you rent, you don't own the building, so you h…

It is, in one sense, illegal. "The NOI provides a history of FCC regulations in this area, noting that in 2007 and 2008 the commission “prohibited providers from entering into or enforcing exclusive agreements to provide services to customers in commercial and residential MTEs.”" - https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/06/exclusive-broadb...

What's not illegal is landlords accepting free services from the ISPs in exchange for their tacit agreement to not allow any other ISPs in. While, of course, saying to tenants that "you can choose any provider you want".

"Go buy a condo or a house" is not an option for the vast majority of people living in apartments. Otherwise, they wouldn't be living in an apartment.

Re: Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

#72

Post by butterfi »

scurvy wrote: post #36
butterfi wrote: post #18

I have Sonic at home, despite that it is basically AT&T dual bonded DSL and slower then my old Comcast connection. Its fast enough and I really like Sonic. Comcast, not so much.

What's the reason to not like Comcast? For me it was Sonic at $90/mo for 3 maybe 4mbps (not a lie), or Comcast at $80 for 300mbps. It's a no-brainer there. I'm not doing anything illegal so I don't care about Comcast cracking down on torrents. The data caps are high enough that I can't hit them in my max-2 simultaneous Netflix streams. Comcast let me buy my own modem instead of using theirs. The only time I lost Comc…

I pretty much agree with all your points. So given Comcast's track record, I've decided to not give them anything I don't have to. I have no reason to believe they will treat their internet customers any better then their cable subscribers. I like the way Sonic does business, so I'm going to support them, even if its slower. Its fast enough for my purposes (and we cord-cut, game, etc)

Re: Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

#74

Post by inferiorhuman »

wahern wrote: post #70
an_opabinia wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Sonic subscriber, I can vouch that this is an accurate report, and that their business model is fundamentally to advertise a low price and charge a high one hoping you’ll like gigabit Ethernet enough to keep it. Another way of looking at this is search engine- and eCommerce-driven price discovery hasn’t given us better prices or more accurate ones, it has just moved money from one set of bad actors (people who r…

That's just not true. They simply don't include taxes in the advertised price, same as everybody else, and because they include voice service in all their plans the taxes add up. You also don't need to use their routers (I don't), but they charge you an extra $10--presumably because of the increased support calls. Here's my latest invoice. I've had Sonic Fiber for a few years so these are the non-promo numbers: Voice…

If everyone jumped off of a bridge, would you?

Re: Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

#75

Post by inferiorhuman »

Rothnargoth wrote: post #69

Sonic customer here, but will try to be neutral. The value proposition was probably the best selling point, and they rarely raise prices. There is a certain satisfaction when the odd piece of Comcast advertisement comes by mail offering 2-3x the price for 1/8 the bandwidth from Sonic. Fiber customers can return the residential gateway and use their own router, which saves you $10/month. You have to agree you understa…

Fiber customers can return the residential gateway and use their own router, which saves you $10/month.

You can return the gigantic Pace multifunction dongle but it'll cost you $10/mo to do so.

Re: Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

#76

Post by awongh »

scurvy wrote: post #36
butterfi wrote: post #18

I have Sonic at home, despite that it is basically AT&T dual bonded DSL and slower then my old Comcast connection. Its fast enough and I really like Sonic. Comcast, not so much.

What's the reason to not like Comcast? For me it was Sonic at $90/mo for 3 maybe 4mbps (not a lie), or Comcast at $80 for 300mbps. It's a no-brainer there. I'm not doing anything illegal so I don't care about Comcast cracking down on torrents. The data caps are high enough that I can't hit them in my max-2 simultaneous Netflix streams. Comcast let me buy my own modem instead of using theirs. The only time I lost Comc…

When I lived in SF I had monkeybrains, I was happy with them, and very happy not to give comcast my money.

Re: Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

#77

Post by jrockway »

beatgammit wrote: post #62
deftnerd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a valid critism. They decided to use Google Captcha and it often blocks 'advanced' users. ReCAPTCHA often has problems with Linux, non-chrome, VPN users, and users that use ad or javascript blockers. That's the kind of advanced user that appreciates and uses an internet provider like Sonic.net. It would be like a mobile phone service provider requiring people to pass a turing test if they call into the sales lin…

Why isn't email verification enough for these services? I don't think they really need to worry about automated services signing up for accounts, so I wonder why they put anything there at all...

Availability tends to be a closely-guarded secret; they don't want a competitor typing in every address in the city and then getting an easy list of customers.

ISPs are way too paranoid about this, though. Simple rate limiting is more than enough. If someone builds a botnet to check what buildings you're available in, maps the addresses to the person in charge of IT at every company in the building, signs the necessary access agreements, digs up the streets to install fiber, then calls your happy customers and asks them to switch, ... good luck to them. Meanwhile, an easy-to-use map or availability checker for potential customers probably has a high probability of getting you a sale.

Re: Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

#78

Post by wahern »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #74
wahern wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just not true. They simply don't include taxes in the advertised price, same as everybody else, and because they include voice service in all their plans the taxes add up. You also don't need to use their routers (I don't), but they charge you an extra $10--presumably because of the increased support calls. Here's my latest invoice. I've had Sonic Fiber for a few years so these are the non-promo numbers: Voice…

If everyone jumped off of a bridge, would you?

The contention was that Sonic's "business model is fundamentally to advertise a low price and charge a high one" and that other ISPs will openly "rip you off" while Sonic will "lie about the real price".

I can't see how the bill supports any of those arguments. Sonic indisputably offers lower prices for their service than any other ISP. Their advertising and billing practices are, at worst, indistinguishable in terms of being more misleading. At best they're far better as my experience with Comcast and other telecom providers has been steady increases, whereas I'll be shocked the day Sonic increases their price.

All the voice line taxes might be a surprise to people, but Sonic isn't pocketing that money (except maybe the $0.36 property tax allotment), no more than any other tax, so I don't see how it's a strategy to make more money. Even if they disclosed them upfront their advertised price would go up a commensurate amount along with every other ISP.

I won't argue that the world would be better with greater pricing transparency, but so would world peace and eradicating homelessness. But there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to single out Sonic in these regards.

It would be reasonable to say something like, "Sonic is at least as good as any other ISP, but it would be nice if they also lead the way in terms of pricing transparency". But that's not what was said.

Re: Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

#79

Post by Lammy »

mrigor wrote: post #25
zalthor wrote: post #22

Maybe I'm being too picky? Or a maybe I'm just in the minority, bit I don't really like using Sonic. I mean, their internet works, and customer support is fine (but I've had as good a service from Comcast too). What I find annoying from Sonic is their billing process. I dislike that they foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if you want to return it). I also dislike that they force…

You don't have to rent their modem

You can send it back, but (supposedly) if you do so they charge you a fee to send a tech out in the future. I say supposedly because it seems like a weed-out warning to reduce support tickets from people who made their own problems, but I haven’t had to find out since my Sonic fiber has been flawless for two years. There’s an ONT on the wall where the fiber comes through, providing one data jack and one phone jack. I just plug an ethernet cable between it and my FreeBSD router PC, request a DHCP lease on that interface, and go.

Re: Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

#80

Post by proverbialbunny »

nudiustertian wrote: post #23
zalthor wrote: post #22

Maybe I'm being too picky? Or a maybe I'm just in the minority, bit I don't really like using Sonic. I mean, their internet works, and customer support is fine (but I've had as good a service from Comcast too). What I find annoying from Sonic is their billing process. I dislike that they foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if you want to return it). I also dislike that they force…

> I dislike that they foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if you want to return it). I also dislike that they force a landline on you and charge you another $10 on you. Who in 2019 needs a landline? I've never used Sonic but this describes my Comcast experience completely. Frustrating that we cant get away from these trappings

I don't know where you live, so maybe your situation is that, but I've been on Comcast for years over multiple houses, and I've always owned my own modem and never have had any hidden fees.

It could be tech support lied to you. It wouldn't be a first.

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