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TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

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41–50 of 79 posts

Re: TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

#41
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of density that can be increased. The node size doesn't represent transistor size, not even the gate size.

What is the theoretical limit? I mean there should be end.

Current density is ~100M (1E8) transistors/mm^2, Assuming transistors with a side of ~10 atoms (and bond length 0.5nm) that means we could get ~4E12 transistors/mm^2. This is almost certainly over optimistic but still it shows that we are orders of magnitude away from limits due to "atomic nature" of matter.

Re: TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

#42
post #7

> by our estimate TSMC will be a "full node" ahead of both Intel and Samsung How times have changed! I still vividly remember Intel being a full node ahead of everyone else with their release of 22nm node. For example, see this article from 2012: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/127987-deliberate-exce... This too shall pass.

I don't know whether the Intel foundry accepts outside customers and to what extent the outside customers have influence on Intel, but TSMC benefits from being single mindedly focused on chip fabrication and has the support of a wide array of customers, financially and technically. Apple, Nvida, AMD, Qualcom, Micron, most of the phone manufacturers, and any other chip consumers all give orders to TSMC. All these pour money, design and production requirement into TSMC. TSMC simply is more focused with the resource they have, while Intel is being distracted with other things.

Re: TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

#43
post #24
post #7

> by our estimate TSMC will be a "full node" ahead of both Intel and Samsung How times have changed! I still vividly remember Intel being a full node ahead of everyone else with their release of 22nm node. For example, see this article from 2012: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/127987-deliberate-exce... This too shall pass.

>How times have changed! I still vividly remember Intel being a full node ahead of everyone else with their release of 22nm node. For example, see this article from 2012: Vividly remember, I was reading this and assuming it is going to be way back.... 22nm and 2012 really wasn't that long ago :D Intel has had the processing node leads on CPU since the 90s. I vividly remember Pentium were always at least one year ahea…

AMD was actually briefly ahead twice before, once in early Athlon times and a few years later with the first AMD64 ("x86-64" or as Intel called it "EM64T") CPU with on-die memory controller.

Re: TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

#44
post #36

AMD struck gold with TSMC right?

Apple financed TSMC's 7nm to a large extent, AMD lucked out.

AMD was lucky, but it is also being run by a highly accomplished semiconductor physicist, so some things are perhaps a little less luck than one might think.

Re: TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

#45
post #42
post #7

> by our estimate TSMC will be a "full node" ahead of both Intel and Samsung How times have changed! I still vividly remember Intel being a full node ahead of everyone else with their release of 22nm node. For example, see this article from 2012: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/127987-deliberate-exce... This too shall pass.

I don't know whether the Intel foundry accepts outside customers and to what extent the outside customers have influence on Intel, but TSMC benefits from being single mindedly focused on chip fabrication and has the support of a wide array of customers, financially and technically. Apple, Nvida, AMD, Qualcom, Micron, most of the phone manufacturers, and any other chip consumers all give orders to TSMC. All these pour…

>Intel is being distracted with other things.

Their long-drawn distraction (circa 2015) is ruining the very ambitious 10nm. The CEO got so distracted, it got sacked for a previous affair.

I am not quite certain if was (is) just a distraction or more of a hubris.

Re: TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

#46
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How times have changed! I still vividly remember Intel being a full node ahead of everyone else with their release of 22nm node. For example, see this article from 2012: Vividly remember, I was reading this and assuming it is going to be way back.... 22nm and 2012 really wasn't that long ago :D Intel has had the processing node leads on CPU since the 90s. I vividly remember Pentium were always at least one year ahea…

AMD was actually briefly ahead twice before, once in early Athlon times and a few years later with the first AMD64 ("x86-64" or as Intel called it "EM64T") CPU with on-die memory controller.

Those were microarchitectural advantages. I don't think AMD was ahead on manufacturing process shrinks. A quick check shows that the P3 and Athlon went from 250nm to 180nm at the same time.

Re: TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

#47
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

btw, what happened to GF ?

GF canceled 7 nm; I guess they didn't have enough money to support the R&D needed to develop advanced processes.

I don't know that it was a lack of money so much as the cost/benefit ratio.

We like to think of all the big chips from Intel, AMD, Nvidia, etc or of bleeding edge mobile processors from Apple or Qualcomm. The reality is that these are a small fraction of the total market for chips. The vast majority of chips are made at 28nm or larger because the cost of production is so much lower.

Supply and demand is another big factor. As supply increases, prices will drop down to bare minimums and if costs can't be reduced enough, there will be expensive fabs sitting around doing nothing. Even if GF has enough money to design and make the fab, that doesn't mean the demand is high enough for them to charge enough to recover their costs.

Instead of spending that money on 7nm, they can spend it refining their 22, 14, and 12nm lines to improve efficiency and lower production costs. With TSMC or Samsung pouring those billions into 7 and 5nm, there's a good chance at GF pulling quite a bit ahead in the slightly older nodes. Once they have done this, those bulk chip makers using 28nm will start moving to smaller nodes. There's quite a tidy sum of profit to be reaped here. Given how every consumer has dozens to hundreds of these small chips for every cutting-edge chip in their home, appliances, or car, there is cumulatively a huge savings to be had in product and energy costs.

Re: TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

#48
post #42
post #7

> by our estimate TSMC will be a "full node" ahead of both Intel and Samsung How times have changed! I still vividly remember Intel being a full node ahead of everyone else with their release of 22nm node. For example, see this article from 2012: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/127987-deliberate-exce... This too shall pass.

I don't know whether the Intel foundry accepts outside customers and to what extent the outside customers have influence on Intel, but TSMC benefits from being single mindedly focused on chip fabrication and has the support of a wide array of customers, financially and technically. Apple, Nvida, AMD, Qualcom, Micron, most of the phone manufacturers, and any other chip consumers all give orders to TSMC. All these pour…

Sure TSMC is more focused but Intel has dramatically greater resources. Their R&D budget is ~5x TSMC's and ~10x AMD's. You have to be pretty badly distracted to fail to produce superior products with such an enormous budget advantage.

Intel technically accepts outside fab contracts but they haven't had any customers since they bought out Altera, their previous only customer.

[1] https://ycharts.com/companies/INTC/r_and_d_expense

https://ycharts.com/companies/TSM/r_and_d_expense

https://ycharts.com/companies/AMD/r_and_d_expense

Re: TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

#49

I hate when acronyms prevent people from understanding important parts of an article. Here you go. TSMC = "Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, Limited, also known as Taiwan Semiconductor, is the world's largest dedicated independent semiconductor foundry" (from Wikipedia).

???

If you led an article with "Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company" my brain would chunk uncomfortably undigested stomach units out of orifaces before it understood.

Do you think you are in the majority? If so - I need to readjust my head.

Re: TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, and Next-Gen 5G and HPC Packaging

#50
post #26
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah but how many nm are left? There's a phsyical limit to transistor size!

There is a lot of density that can be increased. The node size doesn't represent transistor size, not even the gate size.

wouldn't that become a heat dissipation issue?
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