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Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

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Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#231

Post by m0llusk »

noicebrewery wrote: post #20
thdxr wrote: post #14

Who exactly is blaming the poor for their poverty?

Libertarians and conservatives, are we pretending otherwise?

That is pretty shallow. There is a loud subset of the Libertarian party that mostly focuses on the desire for minimal taxation. There is also a substantial subset of Libertarians who advocate for a Universal Basic Income in order to make society itself more fair. This does not necessarily change the idea that slackers choose and deserve their fate, but merely provides people with more opportunity to live for themselves.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#232

Post by state_less »

throw0101a wrote: post #172
boromisp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A possible explanation for what you've experienced can be found in the just-world hypothesis [0], or in the belief that we live in a meritocracy. It is simply a foundational part of many people's worldview and nothing sort of experiencing similar traumas will make them reconsider. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

> A possible explanation for what you've experienced can be found in the just-world hypothesis [0] As a sub-class of that, see also the Prosperity Gospel: > Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success, or seed faith)[A] is a controversial religious belief among some Protestant Christians, who hold that financial blessing and physical well-be…

"They claim their labours are to build a heaven yet their heaven is populated with horrors. Perhaps the world is not made. Perhaps nothing is made. A clock without a craftsman. It's too late. Always has been, always will be…too late." ― Alan Moore, Watchmen

Look to examples of people who give without expecting anything in return.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#233

Post by Faark »

bdukic wrote: post #156
lm28469 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like it's partly made to avoid people abusing the system. In France for example a lot of people go to the doctor for the most ridiculous things because 1: it's free (at least at the individual level) and 2: it's an easy way to get a sick leave (sick leaves have been exploding in the last few years). Same with emergency rooms, people don't know what an emergency is, they just use them as walk in clinic. Every t…

>it's free (at least at the individual level) Is it though? As far as I remember, to visit a doctor you had to pay €25 out of your pocket at the moment of the visit, 70% of which would be refunded by your health insurance at a later point (under the state system, and potentially more if you're paying for the additional private insurance or "mutuelle".

Cannot comment on France, but [0] is a german wikipedia article about a counterpart we had in germany. From 2004 til 2012, you had to pay 10€ to the first doctor you visited in a quarter.

Not a great system and we thankfully got rid of it again.

[0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxisgebühr (in german)

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#234

Post by ckris »

maxheadroom wrote: post #218
avip wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think someone who can "work in tech or medicine" is somehow EU immigration eligible?

> What makes you think someone who can "work in tech or medicine" is somehow EU immigration eligible? Most of the more restrictive EU countries (e.g.: UK, Ireland, etc.) have barriers to getting immigration stamps, which the most oft way of immigration is through employment and the most labour available to foreigners is either tech or medicine. For example, in Sweden, a position must be listed as a highly qualified s…

> You're not getting an employment contract, for example, to work in Burger King in Stockholm because it wouldn't pass the labour market needs test.

As far as I know there isn't any labour market test in Sweden anymore. The unions only gets to comment on whether the contract is similar to that of the collective agreement for the sector.

http://www.nordiclabourjournal.org/i-fokus/in-focus-2013/soc...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#235

Post by cglace »

fatbird wrote: post #49
cglace wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some places you need a license to wash hair.

Because without minimal standards for sterilizing tools, hair dressers can spread lice. Basic licencing requirements give the municipality a chance to ensure that everyone washing hair has been told about basic hygienic standards for washing hair.

To go a step further we probably should license dish washers. To make sure they know the risks of spreading food borne disease.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#236

Post by anthony1617 »

soVeryTired wrote: post #103
rjf72 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine there was a button you could push that would give every single person everything you're mentioning - a free house, free healthcare, and all the things you're not mentioning - free education, free sustenance, free childcare, free longterm paid pa/maternal leave, guaranteed high paying jobs, etc. Who wouldn't push this button? I think every single individual, right/left/libertarian/liberal/conservative or whate…

> It's precisely what the GDP/capita captures. It's about $62,000. And we're already chopping 27% of that in taxes to fund our current [generally underfunded] programs, so you can drop it down to $45k. I think you've misunderstood the nature of government spending. It's not like the government destroys that 27% when it spends it: the money is just redirected from where it might have gone (i.e. consumer spending) to o…

> It's not like the government destroys that 27% when it spends it: the money is just redirected

It's easier to think about these things in terms of labor than in terms of money - money is too abstract and it's easy to make logical errors.

Imagine we have a 100% labor/service economy. Each time money changes hands, it means that that much "value" of labor has been exerted. In this sense, it is clear that the GDP is an accurate representation of precisely how much "value" or labor is being exerted in total across the country each year.

If each time money changes hands, the government takes 27%, that means that 27% of all labor exerted in the economy goes to the government, and is spent, permanently. Money is finite in the same sense that labor is finite in this example.

> But if a competitor offers a generic version of the same drug at ten dollars a year, putting me out of business, that $10k / year diaappears from the GDP figure.

No, then the consumer would put that 10k / year towards some other purpose instead, and it would still show up in the GDP.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#237

Post by cglace »

fatbird wrote: post #84
fatbird wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because without minimal standards for sterilizing tools, hair dressers can spread lice. Basic licencing requirements give the municipality a chance to ensure that everyone washing hair has been told about basic hygienic standards for washing hair.

Leave it to the HN community to view a lice outbreak as an acceptable price to pay for the freedom of the market.

Are you saying lice outbreaks would not happen if we did not have a free market?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#238

Post by gurkendoktor »

noicebrewery wrote: post #20
thdxr wrote: post #14

Who exactly is blaming the poor for their poverty?

Libertarians and conservatives, are we pretending otherwise?

I've also met pro-establishment "liberals" who look down on poor people as long as they're white. This sentiment started the whole "learn to code" backlash meme on Twitter, although to be fair I've never seen any journalist directly make that suggestion.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#239

Post by fuzz4lyfe »

disordinary wrote: post #222
fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know how much US insurance costs your employer, but I assume it's several times more, rather than several times less, than mine pays! You also likely make half what I make and that's before taxes (my wife is from the UK, I looked at jobs over there and rural US IT salaries can beat London IT salaries). I prefer my deal to yours.

How much paid vacation do you get? Sick days? How much maternity leave does your wife get? What sort of employment protection do you have? The difference isn't as clear cut as it seems on the surface.

Four weeks. No sick days part of the four weeks. None but I can afford to support her while she is home with our daughter for as long as they need. None besides about 5 job offers in my inbox per day.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#240

Post by CalRobert »

disordinary wrote: post #166
CalRobert wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"get out of you don't like it" Nobody saying this has actually researched it. Too many people in the states are under the impression you can just up and move to a European country, no problem. One friendly-but-clueless acquaintance got flown back from Heathrow for asking the immigration officer about where to find jobs when she landed. If you don't/can't: * work in tech or medicine * go to university in Europe in a h…

Also, if you have long term medical problems which are going to burden the tax payer they're not going to let you in.

Very true. I have to hold private medical insurance as part of my permission to be here (and to get here in the first place).
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