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When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

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Re: When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

#51

Post by brandonfro »

arkh wrote: post #21
brandonfro wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably comes from the fact that “Men’s rights activists” are somewhat extreme considering men have dominated every aspect of society (e.g. politics, religion, sports, etc.). The idea of “Men’s rights” seems redundant to most people in my estimation.

> considering men have dominated every aspect of society Some men. And a minority of them.

I’d say quite a lot when you consider local municipalities, churches (at least in the south), and small businesses. Historically, high positions in those places have been held by predominantly men. This isn’t news and it’s irrefutable.

Why does it feel like people are combatant to historical facts?

Re: When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

#52

Post by blackflame7000 »

daenz wrote: post #32
blackflame7000 wrote: post #2

I think oftentimes in human interaction you can either be right or be liked. It might seem like a great injustice but oftentimes, being right comes at the expense of another being wrong. The problem is that there is nothing wrong with being wrong and yet a lot of us still take this very personally. Everyone is wrong until someone tells them what is right.

>The problem is that there is nothing wrong with being wrong This says more about you though (in a good way). To many people who lack that kind of intellectual maturity, there is something wrong with being wrong. It's the saw someone can use to cut the rungs off of your ladder as you climb the social hierarchy. Someone can always rub your mistakes in your face, and groups of people will view you as less capable becau…

I think if we're all being completely honest with ourselves, we're all wrong a lot. We just don't publicize it because nobody, sometimes including ourselves, ever notices. The thing that should matter most is how well we learn from our mistakes so as not to repeat them.

Re: When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

#53

Post by rubinelli »

diminoten wrote: post #22

It wouldn't be such a big deal if these "wrong" communities didn't seem to be so outrage driven, but they tend to be more about the anger than pursuing their "truth". Acts of "proving" oneself to the community gain a person favor, which ends up being the stuff that effects us "normies", rather than their mere existence.

I wouldn't single out those communities. Take the top 20 subreddits, and you'll see the ones that aren't just meme feeds are driven by outrage.

Re: When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

#54

Post by phil248 »

leereeves wrote: post #39
herbstein wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Mens rights advocates" reffered to here are a specific subset of activist for "mens rights". These people often focus more on putting down women than trying advance men and women in unison. That's not to say that a social progressive movement focusing on men and their plights is at odds with the modern feminist movement. Just look at the subreddit /r/menslib for information on that.

In some ways it the conflict with feminists is inevitable, for example when feminists demanded that every man accused of rape be punished, ignoring the rights of the accused and the existence of false allegations. It was MRAs that stood up to that, while menslib seemed to support it.

"when feminists demanded that every man accused of rape be punished"

Where did you get this idea? That sounds like precisely the type of exaggerated nonsense that fuels things like the Men's Rights movement in the first place.

Re: When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

#55

Post by happytoexplain »

david38 wrote: post #48

The author appears to lump anyone of opposing views together. Flat earth - trivial to disprove, ok Anti-vacation - not trivial, but a huge amount of work has been done to show anyone who isn’t totally shut down the glaring before/after situation of vaccines, so ok Men’s Rights? Seriously? Is the author saying men have no rights? Some of the things that fall under the men’s rights umbrella are the draft, lack of help…

>Is there a specific men’s rights subgroup the author is referring to that’s very loud

Yes, and, as usual with loud, antagonistic subgroups, they look from the outside like part of the larger group's definition. But that's not an excuse - I wish people like the author would be more generous when talking about the larger groups. Men's rights are particularly affected by this, because it's a topic with both a lot of legitimate grievances and illegitimate hatred among its ranks.

Re: When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

#56

Post by phil248 »

daenz wrote: post #6

I think this article indirectly highlights why mob rule and direct democracies are so potentially dangerous: people need to feel accepted, and will take many ideas on faith, even dangerous ones, than to risk having an opinion that causes them to feel the scorn of their peers.

That may miss the point slightly. These are people who are on the receiving end of scorn, and their decisions to dive deeper into fringe communities only opens them up to further scorn! The very opposite of the issue you are describing, which is a situation in which people conform en masse in order to avoid scorn.

Re: When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

#57

Post by [deleted] »

arkh wrote: post #21
brandonfro wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably comes from the fact that “Men’s rights activists” are somewhat extreme considering men have dominated every aspect of society (e.g. politics, religion, sports, etc.). The idea of “Men’s rights” seems redundant to most people in my estimation.

> considering men have dominated every aspect of society Some men. And a minority of them.

[deleted]

Re: When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

#58

Post by leereeves »

phil248 wrote: post #54
leereeves wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some ways it the conflict with feminists is inevitable, for example when feminists demanded that every man accused of rape be punished, ignoring the rights of the accused and the existence of false allegations. It was MRAs that stood up to that, while menslib seemed to support it.

"when feminists demanded that every man accused of rape be punished" Where did you get this idea? That sounds like precisely the type of exaggerated nonsense that fuels things like the Men's Rights movement in the first place.

Under Obama's policy, students accused of rape were frequently denied due process, and yet, despite not being allowed to present their case, the burden of proof was on the accused. Many innocent men were punished.

In one case, the court said the accused was not provided any information about the factual basis of the charges against him, was not able to examine the evidence supporting the victim's statements and was not allowed to appear before the panel deciding his case.[1]

In another case, the court found that the university violated the accused's due process rights by presuming his guilt ahead of a hearing, not allowing the accused student access to witnesses and evidence, and informing a hearing panel of his guilt instead of letting the panel reach its own conclusion.[1]

In some cases they were even punishing people who were proven innocent, because the tribunals refused to hear evidence proving their innocence.[2]

We saw this attitude again in the Kavanaugh hearings, when feminists were demanding that Kavanaugh's nomination be denied because of unproven allegations.

As Hillary put it, accusers "have the right to be believed", which she later clarified as: every accuser "should be believed at first until they are disbelieved based on evidence". In other words, the accused should be considered guilty until proven innocent.

1: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/04/14/several-stude...

2: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/campus-sexual-assaul...

Re: When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

#59

Post by rubinelli »

brandonfro wrote: post #51
arkh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> considering men have dominated every aspect of society Some men. And a minority of them.

I’d say quite a lot when you consider local municipalities, churches (at least in the south), and small businesses. Historically, high positions in those places have been held by predominantly men. This isn’t news and it’s irrefutable. Why does it feel like people are combatant to historical facts?

The frustrating part is the logical leap: You are a man, men have historically occupied privileged positions, therefore you are privileged. A young man trying to find his first job without experience doesn't feel privileged, nor does one that suffers domestic violence. But instead of receiving support, they are told to man up.

Re: When Having Friends Is More Alluring Than Being Right

#60

Post by [deleted] »

slowhadoken wrote: post #33
Maximus9000 wrote: post #7

> "And if it was just flat-earthers, I’d say fine, it’s harmless. But you’ve got anti-vaxxers and Men’s Rights Advocates and anti-global warming folks and TERFs and incels out there, all fueled by one central pivot point of humanity – namely, that it’s lonely being wrong." It seems quite odd that he lumps "Mens rights advocates" in there. Are they crazy?

Yeah, I don’t like how the term “men’s rights advocate” is thrown around. Maybe some groups that use that term are crazy or something but men deserve rights and advocates for those rights. Men are often treated as second class citizens. People laughing at that is senseless.

[deleted]
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