Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

smithsonianmag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 201 posts

Re: Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

#161

Post by jldugger »

geomark wrote: post #159
throwawy123 wrote: post #36

I took a polygraph twice for an NSA internship (TS/CSI Clearance). It's an interesting process. In the first phase, you go over your security forms (SF-86 and related) in detail with your polygraph examiner. They ask a lot of detailed questions, sometimes including things you aren't legally required to disclose (drug use and foreign travel outside the listed time limits). In the second phase, they hook you up to the…

Very similar to my experience, but different 3-letter agency. Two rounds. Lots of questions about drug use. I wasn't shy about it because I had had legal run-ins over it when I was young so I knew it was already out there. But examiner claimed that I was being evasive. My employer really wanted me cleared so I was coached a bit, told that unless I admit to being a spy it almost doesn't matter what I admit I have done…

At this point, I assume the point of the process isn't to ferret out liars, but to ferret out people who were trained to pass a polygraph under stress, on the theory that such people are more likely to be spies. It's the only thing that makes sense given the scientific unreliability, the random unfounded accusations by interviewers and whatnot.

But maybe I'm being to generous.

Re: Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

#162

Post by jldugger »

zacharycohn wrote: post #101
hutzlibu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possible, but how can you know for sure, if you were not there?

The parent poster is correct. This is a standard practice for polygraph interviews. The pick one question, more or less at random, and double/triple/quadruple down on it until you break. Or don't. I got "have you ever committed a crime" (and after a actually pretty cool conversation about filesharing vs recording songs off the radio with a tape recorder, I passed). A friend of mine got "have you ever had sex with ani…

Sadly, 'Fuck you and the horse you rode in on' would be an inappropriate response.

Re: Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

#163

Post by inflatableDodo »

throwawy123 wrote: post #36

I took a polygraph twice for an NSA internship (TS/CSI Clearance). It's an interesting process. In the first phase, you go over your security forms (SF-86 and related) in detail with your polygraph examiner. They ask a lot of detailed questions, sometimes including things you aren't legally required to disclose (drug use and foreign travel outside the listed time limits). In the second phase, they hook you up to the…

>If you're particularly desirable to the managers who're looking to hire you, they'll keep inviting you to take more polygraphs, and you'll eventually pass.

Now, I am no expert on these things, but something tells me that they are doing this wrong.

"All of your previous polygraph tests indicated to us that you couldn't be trusted as far as we could throw you, however your latest one clearly shows that you have suddenly become as honest as the day is long. Welcome to the team."

Re: Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

#164

Post by erikpukinskis »

tdfx wrote: post #151
throwawy123 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you can be prosecuted for things you admit during a polygraph interview. You can also be prosecuted for lying, since the polygraph examiners are federal investigators.

> You can also be prosecuted for lying, since the polygraph examiners are federal investigators. That part is not true. Polygraph examiners are not sworn federal law enforcement officers. But they are happy to refer any of your admissions of guilt to federal law enforcement who may come ask you the same questions. Lying to them is a criminal offense.

Wait, it’s illegal to lie to federal LEOs?

Re: Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

#165

Post by m463 »

taxidump wrote: post #18

I passed a polygraph, I was untruthful and still passed. The person administering the test had done tbis for the FBI for 15 years. I had no special training.

A friend failed a polygraph. She handled money in a resturant and was a scrupulously honest person. She had a genetic health condition and it was probably responsible.

But they knew her character, and even though she didn't pass she didn't have any problem or lose her job.

Re: Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

#166

Post by pdonis »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #164
tdfx wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can also be prosecuted for lying, since the polygraph examiners are federal investigators. That part is not true. Polygraph examiners are not sworn federal law enforcement officers. But they are happy to refer any of your admissions of guilt to federal law enforcement who may come ask you the same questions. Lying to them is a criminal offense.

Wait, it’s illegal to lie to federal LEOs?

It's illegal to lie to the Federal Government period:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1001

More precisely, it's a violation of 18 USC 1001 to lie about "any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States" (with a couple of specific exceptions as given). Technically you don't even have to lie to a Federal official since the statute doesn't specify that; it just has to be a matter "within the jurisdiction" of the Federal government.

Re: Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

#167

Post by pdonis »

dheera wrote: post #106
throwawy123 wrote: post #36

I took a polygraph twice for an NSA internship (TS/CSI Clearance). It's an interesting process. In the first phase, you go over your security forms (SF-86 and related) in detail with your polygraph examiner. They ask a lot of detailed questions, sometimes including things you aren't legally required to disclose (drug use and foreign travel outside the listed time limits). In the second phase, they hook you up to the…

> questions about foreign contacts This sounds unreasonably intrusive IMO. What if you have a couple thousand acquaintances and friends around the world?

> What if you have a couple thousand acquaintances and friends around the world?

Then that's what you say in response to the question.

Re: Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

#168

Post by TrinaryWorksToo »

If we want to detect recognition of something they deny, we can go directly to the brain: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/detecting-dece...

Michael from VSauce already tried to countermeasure this method and failed.

https://psychology.iresearchnet.com/forensic-psychology/poli...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001002770...

Re: Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

#169

Post by giles_corey »

throwawy123 wrote: post #156
tdfx wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can also be prosecuted for lying, since the polygraph examiners are federal investigators. That part is not true. Polygraph examiners are not sworn federal law enforcement officers. But they are happy to refer any of your admissions of guilt to federal law enforcement who may come ask you the same questions. Lying to them is a criminal offense.

Certainly not joe shmoe polygraph examiners, but I was under the impression that the NSA examiners are sworn federal law enforcement officers. Now that I say that, though, I can't find a reference to support this.

NSA polygraph operators are not law enforcement officers. Lying to them is nonetheless a violation of 18 USC 1001. However, I am not aware of any case where anyone has been criminally prosecuted for lying during an NSA polygraph interrogation.

Re: Why Lie Detector Tests Can’t Be Trusted

#170

Post by nyolfen »

Kemschumam wrote: post #158
zacharycohn wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent poster is correct. This is a standard practice for polygraph interviews. The pick one question, more or less at random, and double/triple/quadruple down on it until you break. Or don't. I got "have you ever committed a crime" (and after a actually pretty cool conversation about filesharing vs recording songs off the radio with a tape recorder, I passed). A friend of mine got "have you ever had sex with ani…

One of the nsa's biggest breaches was perpetrated by a guy who admitted to bestiality during his polygraph.

lol, you can’t just leave us hanging here
Post reply on HN