Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#161

Post by leetcrew » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 2:52 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #48

Iv wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. Is the existence of an ID really the problem there? I like the idea that having to provide an ID is optional and the police can't force someone to comply without a good reason, but the existence of an UID for people seems really necessary in a lot of cases, to prove someone did not vote 10 times in an election, to track yo…

Interestingly, voter ID laws are massively controversial in the US. The rationale is because they have disproportionate effects on African-Americans, and that voter fraud (eg somebody voting ten times in an election) does not seem to actually happen that frequently anyway.

as I understand it, voter ID laws are controversial because certain groups of people are less likely to have official ID. in general, if you don't drive or leave the country, you don't need a state-issued ID. if the federal government issued an ID to every citizen of the US, you couldn't argue that the requirement disproportionately impeded minorities from voting; they already have the ID!

of course, there are many other reasons why a mandatory national ID would be politically unfeasible in the US.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#162

Post by philwelch » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 5:54 AM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #63

philwelch wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iceland—a relatively small country— still uses patronymics rather than surnames for the most part. The singer Bjork is Björk Guðmundsdóttir, because her father is Guðmundur Gunnarsson, which makes Bjork “Guthmund’s daughter”. There are still confusing exceptions: the retired footballer Eiður Guðjohnsen is not actually Gudjohn’s son; he is the son of Arnór Guðjohnsen.

Interesting, I didn't know that. There was a big period of confusion in the overlap with some keeping to patronymics, some using as a family name. I'm not sure if it was Christianity, or personal preference that made the switch, as Christianity wasn't fully rolled out to England yet, again Danelaw areas being late adopters. Parish records of births, marriages and deaths were still 500 years away, so maybe no one real…

How often were sons named for their fathers? I imagine it would be confusing to have generations of John Johnsons around.

Regarding “the eldest having a particular first name which would be given to the next eldest if the older one inconveniently died”—is that referring mainly to childhood mortality? I’ve read of names being reused at times due to the (by modern standards) shocking rate of infant mortality but I’ve never heard of that particular custom.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#163

Post by philwelch » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 5:58 AM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #161

philwelch wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, voter ID laws are massively controversial in the US. The rationale is because they have disproportionate effects on African-Americans, and that voter fraud (eg somebody voting ten times in an election) does not seem to actually happen that frequently anyway.

as I understand it, voter ID laws are controversial because certain groups of people are less likely to have official ID. in general, if you don't drive or leave the country, you don't need a state-issued ID. if the federal government issued an ID to every citizen of the US, you couldn't argue that the requirement disproportionately impeded minorities from voting; they already have the ID! of course, there are many o…

If you don’t drive, leave the country, fly on airlines, buy alcohol or tobacco, patronize establishments legally designated as certain categories of alcohol-serving establishments or adult entertainment venues, have a bank account, or have an actual job that would require you to fill out an I-9, you might be able to live in America without ID. But it seems really, really hard.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#164

Post by jaclaz » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 12:56 PM UTC

ithkuil wrote: post #160

jaclaz wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again to be picky, not really-really, the algorithm does very little. If there is not "homocody" the algorithm is "enough". If there is, then it is allowed to use an algorithm to calculate a different code, BUT this can only be done by the Agenzia delle Entrate that keeps all codes in a database to avoid duplications: https://quifinanza.it/tasse/codice-fiscale-come-si-calcola-e... Since the Codice Fiscale comes physi…

I've also witnessed the opposite problem: a government office roughly equivalent to the DMV (motorizzazione civile) registering a driving license with a codice fiscale provided by person without checking that it was actually issued by the government. 15 yeas later, another person in a different city, miles away, argued loudly, while trying to file the request to convert a foreign driving license, that she 100% sure s…

>fwiw, they didn't solve the issue during that session

Sure, that's normal, they could not.

It is anyway (even if caused by a different issue) a case of "homocody".

These can only be solved by the Agenzia delle Entrate or - in some cases - they cannot even be solved by them and you need to resort to other means.

And yes, being on the wrong side of bureaucracy is never a good place to be in, the Italian one (but more generally that of any nation with a similar approach, let's call them "Latin", I have personal experience with Spain and Portugal besides Italy, and they are rather similar) is a bit more complex than corresponding anglo-saxonish or germanish ones, but it depends a lot on the specific cases.

The Italian Motorizzazione Civile suffers historically from lack of personnel and the intertwining of "traffic Laws" with "General Law", things - recently - are getting a little better because of simplifications on the legal definition of car as property, but until a few years ago a "simple" change of ownership of a vehicle (what you normally do in the UK by mail and in Germany by going to the nearest Police station) was a terrible experience, usually taking months to obtain the new certification.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#165

Post by ithkuil » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 8:45 PM UTC

jaclaz wrote: post #164

ithkuil wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also witnessed the opposite problem: a government office roughly equivalent to the DMV (motorizzazione civile) registering a driving license with a codice fiscale provided by person without checking that it was actually issued by the government. 15 yeas later, another person in a different city, miles away, argued loudly, while trying to file the request to convert a foreign driving license, that she 100% sure s…

>fwiw, they didn't solve the issue during that session Sure, that's normal, they could not. It is anyway (even if caused by a different issue) a case of "homocody". These can only be solved by the Agenzia delle Entrate or - in some cases - they cannot even be solved by them and you need to resort to other means. And yes, being on the wrong side of bureaucracy is never a good place to be in, the Italian one (but more…

In this case the central registry couldn't solve the problem, because it was not their fault.

Both persons had two distinct personal codes, issued officially by the "agenzia delle entrate" office.

It's when the motor vehicle driving license of person A has been registered, that a transcription error happened.

Whether that instance could have been avoided with a more careful check or not misses the point.

The point is that data entry errors are possible.

As this little anecdote exemplifies, having a unique citizens code doesn't prevent the confusion of identities.

It makes it less frequent which in turn makes it a worse experience for those to whom it happens (since officials have no training to solve the issue).

E.g. the software at the "motorizzazione civile" is likely to treat the CF field with a "unique" constraint, which turns out to be a problem when a new user enters the system with a strong proof of legitimate ownership of a code that was likely erroneously used in the past.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#166

Post by thaumasiotes » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 11:46 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #55

dredmorbius wrote: post #5

Naming is an interesting thing. I'm wrestling with it from another contex presently. I'm reminded of the lines from Homer. in which the hero (himself given at least two names within the text, including one in its title) unambiguously (and rather rashly as it happens) identifies himself to Polyphemus: Cyclops, if any man of mortal birth Note thine unseemly blindness and inquire The occasion, tell him that Laertes' son…

> Ancestry, name, deeds, place. Those are of course all there in the Greek, but the order is different: Κύκλωψ, αἴ κέν τίς σε καταθνητῶν ἀνθρώπων ὀφθαλμοῦ εἴρηται ἀεικελίην ἀλαωτύν, φάσθαι Ὀδυσσῆα πτολιπόρθιον ἐξαλαῶσαι, υἱὸν Λαέρτεω, Ἰθάκῃ ἔνι οἰκί᾽ ἔχοντα. Cyclops, if any mortal man should ask you about the shameful blinding of [your] eye, declare Odysseus the city-sacker to have blinded [you], the son of Laertes,…

For completeness, the above English translation preserving the word order and line breaks of the original, using the following conventions:

1. [†] indicates that a word present in the Greek has been moved in the English.

2. word[†] indicates the word moved from the space marked [†].

3. [word] indicates a word not present in the Greek, but necessary in the English.

    Cyclops, if any [1] mortal man
    [2] should ask you[1] about the shameful blinding of [your] eye[2],
    declare Odysseus the city-sacker to have blinded [you],
    the son of Laertes, who-has[3] a-home[4] in[5] Ithaca [5] [4] [3].

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#167

Post by photojosh » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 11:51 PM UTC

gregw2 wrote: post #139

fouc wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard there was a similar confusion with Jesus Christ, basically another prophet of the same name around the same time. One got killed on the cross but the other one lived, leading to the 'came back from death' rebirth story.

So the apostles who lived with him for several years were also just "confused"?

Well, there is the story about how he appeared and talked to some of them during the course of a lengthy walk and they didn't recognise him until dinner time... ;)

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#168

Post by NeedMoreTea » Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 12:06 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #162

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I didn't know that. There was a big period of confusion in the overlap with some keeping to patronymics, some using as a family name. I'm not sure if it was Christianity, or personal preference that made the switch, as Christianity wasn't fully rolled out to England yet, again Danelaw areas being late adopters. Parish records of births, marriages and deaths were still 500 years away, so maybe no one real…

How often were sons named for their fathers? I imagine it would be confusing to have generations of John Johnsons around. Regarding “the eldest having a particular first name which would be given to the next eldest if the older one inconveniently died”—is that referring mainly to childhood mortality? I’ve read of names being reused at times due to the (by modern standards) shocking rate of infant mortality but I’ve n…

I honestly don't know, but probably not that uncommon as naming for the father has carried into the modern era. No less confusing to have three generations of John Smith.

The eldest getting a given name may have been a status thing, perhaps tied in with succession. Eldest being the one that would inherit the land or title. The young had all sorts of opportunities to die, and even escaping childhood was no guarantee as you'd then be expected to make up a Lord or King's retinue of men for any conflict. Maybe it's the origin of popes and some monarchs taking a name on succession - the "job name".

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#169

Post by camillomiller » Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 6:33 AM UTC

jobigoud wrote: post #105

camillomiller wrote: post #50

In Italy it’s quite common to go with Galileo Galilei, I would say we use name surname most of the time when we mention him. Maybe it has to do also with how it rolls out of the tongue nicely for us.

In France we say "Galilée". Not sure if it's referring to first or last name.

Classic France!

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#170

Post by wtmt » Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 7:28 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #13

vpzom wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hopefully one day we have a UID for humans[…] that sounds really dangerous

I keep seeing people from US and UK equating IDs with totalitarianism. Why? I don't follow the reasoning here. I believe all Americans have a social security number, right? And all passport holders have a de-facto global UID (but not everyone has a passport and bi-nationals may have several) I don't see what this enables that would be impossible without.

> And all passport holders have a de-facto global UID (but not everyone has a passport and bi-nationals may have several)

In India, passport numbers change (for the same person) whenever they're reissued (renewal, lost, etc.). That's a good thing, IMO.