Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#41

Post by jazzyjackson » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 6:14 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #13

vpzom wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hopefully one day we have a UID for humans[…] that sounds really dangerous

I keep seeing people from US and UK equating IDs with totalitarianism. Why? I don't follow the reasoning here. I believe all Americans have a social security number, right? And all passport holders have a de-facto global UID (but not everyone has a passport and bi-nationals may have several) I don't see what this enables that would be impossible without.

If you google "mark of the beast real ID" you'll see all kinds of very interesting reasoning. I don't know how much I'm joking about it, because if you don't think there's believers you're in a bubble -- I'm not saying whether or not they're crazy to reject a Real ID on religious grounds, but I think it is a pressure in american politics at least.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#42

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 6:26 AM UTC

I worked in insurance for over five years. One of the more common reasons we had to send out HIPAA notification letters was due to relatives in the same city with similar or identical names getting claims processed under the wrong policy. These were very often two male relatives -- father and son, twin brothers, cousins. They sometimes even lived on the same street.

There's also this story about two women with the same name and birth date who kept getting mixed up by the government of the city they lived in and finally met to sort it out:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/03/identity-the...

There are very real issues with not being able to reliably identify people in a world where we so routinely interact with people who don't personally know us. Thanks to my ex and I both having first-hand experience with family members having similar names, we both agreed on making sure our children had names that wouldn't cause that type of issue for them.

Yet I still have mixed feelings about our systems insisting on a particular name format. If it were a foolproof system, identify theft would not be a thing. Plus, it places a lot of weird, intrusive limitations on people who may not in actual fact get called by the name they are required to give as their "one true name."

Internet age version of this type issue:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20539187

See also the artist Banksy for a similar issue in terms of an anonymous person nonetheless having a consistent public identity and body of work.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#43

Post by weinzierl » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 6:27 AM UTC

Bayart wrote: post #33

School-Cotton wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some Western European cultures (Portuguese and Spanish, and thereby Latin American), most people have two last names. When dealing with automated systems in other countries, it causes all manner of problems!

Or having to give your « middle name » in the Anglosphere ! Try explaining you have three to a clerk...

> Try explaining you have three to a clerk...

Or even that you don't have a first name but a set of given names and that the relative that gave you the name that is conventionally often put in a later position would not be amused about another relatives name singled out to be a "first name".

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#44

Post by dmckeon » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 6:37 AM UTC

lota-putty wrote: post #28

Last names, surnames & nicknames were initial attempts of man to address name collisions. SMS lingo & keyboards caused this: https://www.abbreviations.com/acronyms/FAMOUSPEOPLE I hear there are 300 million Hindu gods, someone ought to list them out somewhere for reference.

Be careful with that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_Go...

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#45

Post by philwelch » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 6:37 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #31

smaccona wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a full combination of first + family name doesn't really help for identification purposes, though: "John Smith" may not be quite as unidentifiable/ambiguous as "Mohammed, son of Mohammed, grandson of Mohammed", but it's not too far off it either. In general, websites don't depend on these names for identification; if a site refused to sign me up because I shared a name with another "Smith, John" then I would r…

It is not perfect, far from it, and the reason why so many Americans have second names (After all, USA had to Georges Bush as president) A free form "full name" text could be the solution, but then the problem is forcing a formatting on it so that one person always puts the same thing in this field. Should I include second names? Accents? Is that family name first or second? At least, with clearly labeled fields you…

There are also differences with how surname/given name ordering translates between languages. For example, a Chinese name like Xi Jinping has Xi as the surname and is rendered in that order in both Chinese and English. A Japanese name like Shinzo Abe is rendered in Japanese as Abe Shinzo with Abe as the surname.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#46

Post by philwelch » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 6:43 AM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #37

Iv wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a stand up comedian of Algerian descent explaining that situation when the French administration tries to do the census of their colony. The custom was to use your father's and grandfather's name as a name. Problem is, many people, including brothers would have the most popular name (I think it was Mohammed). Having a Mohammed, son of Mohammed, grandson of Mohammed was common. So the French admninistration…

> Family names start appearing when you need to be able to identify a person unambiguously among the population of a big country Pretty sure they go back further than that. Family names that are former patronymics (Svenson, Stevenson, Godwinson etc) are notably more common in Northern England than Southern. Reason being that was the Danelaw part of England where the Vikings held sway until roughly the Norman Conquest…

Iceland—a relatively small country—still uses patronymics rather than surnames for the most part. The singer Bjork is Björk Guðmundsdóttir, because her father is Guðmundur Gunnarsson, which makes Bjork “Guthmund’s daughter”.

There are still confusing exceptions: the retired footballer Eiður Guðjohnsen is not actually Gudjohn’s son; he is the son of Arnór Guðjohnsen.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#47

Post by Thorrez » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 6:48 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

I worked in insurance for over five years. One of the more common reasons we had to send out HIPAA notification letters was due to relatives in the same city with similar or identical names getting claims processed under the wrong policy. These were very often two male relatives -- father and son, twin brothers, cousins. They sometimes even lived on the same street. There's also this story about two women with the sa…

> Thanks to my ex and I both having first-hand experience with family members having similar names, we both agreed on making sure our children had names that wouldn't cause that type of issue for them.

My aunt was in that same position, tired of her name being confused with other people in the family. So she named her 3 daughters 3 names unique from anyone in the family. Then 3 of her brothers in law married 3 women with those same 3 names.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#48

Post by philwelch » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 6:51 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #35

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has no requirement for ID. The old WW2 ID was abolished in the early 50s as an infringement of civil liberties. The idea being that a citizen can go about their lawful business without interruption unless suspected of something. IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. A passport or driving licence forms a de facto ID, but both of those are voluntary, and th…

> IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. Is the existence of an ID really the problem there? I like the idea that having to provide an ID is optional and the police can't force someone to comply without a good reason, but the existence of an UID for people seems really necessary in a lot of cases, to prove someone did not vote 10 times in an election, to track yo…

Interestingly, voter ID laws are massively controversial in the US. The rationale is because they have disproportionate effects on African-Americans, and that voter fraud (eg somebody voting ten times in an election) does not seem to actually happen that frequently anyway.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#49

Post by buildzr » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 6:55 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

I worked in insurance for over five years. One of the more common reasons we had to send out HIPAA notification letters was due to relatives in the same city with similar or identical names getting claims processed under the wrong policy. These were very often two male relatives -- father and son, twin brothers, cousins. They sometimes even lived on the same street. There's also this story about two women with the sa…

Be careful with that - my friends enjoy an automatic level of anonymity even if they publish something under their real names, but my real name is rare enough that it points directly to me and me alone on Google results.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#50

Post by camillomiller » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 6:56 AM UTC

In Italy it’s quite common to go with Galileo Galilei, I would say we use name surname most of the time when we mention him. Maybe it has to do also with how it rolls out of the tongue nicely for us.