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Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

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Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#31

Post by Iv »

smaccona wrote: post #14
Iv wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a stand up comedian of Algerian descent explaining that situation when the French administration tries to do the census of their colony. The custom was to use your father's and grandfather's name as a name. Problem is, many people, including brothers would have the most popular name (I think it was Mohammed). Having a Mohammed, son of Mohammed, grandson of Mohammed was common. So the French admninistration…

Having a full combination of first + family name doesn't really help for identification purposes, though: "John Smith" may not be quite as unidentifiable/ambiguous as "Mohammed, son of Mohammed, grandson of Mohammed", but it's not too far off it either. In general, websites don't depend on these names for identification; if a site refused to sign me up because I shared a name with another "Smith, John" then I would r…

It is not perfect, far from it, and the reason why so many Americans have second names (After all, USA had to Georges Bush as president)

A free form "full name" text could be the solution, but then the problem is forcing a formatting on it so that one person always puts the same thing in this field. Should I include second names? Accents? Is that family name first or second? At least, with clearly labeled fields you are already able to tell Adam Smith from a Smith Adam.

Webshops usually are happy with name + current address but there are administrative domains where this is not acceptable.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#32

Post by raverbashing »

smaccona wrote: post #14
Iv wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a stand up comedian of Algerian descent explaining that situation when the French administration tries to do the census of their colony. The custom was to use your father's and grandfather's name as a name. Problem is, many people, including brothers would have the most popular name (I think it was Mohammed). Having a Mohammed, son of Mohammed, grandson of Mohammed was common. So the French admninistration…

Having a full combination of first + family name doesn't really help for identification purposes, though: "John Smith" may not be quite as unidentifiable/ambiguous as "Mohammed, son of Mohammed, grandson of Mohammed", but it's not too far off it either. In general, websites don't depend on these names for identification; if a site refused to sign me up because I shared a name with another "Smith, John" then I would r…

> sites insist on collection first and last names separately, as opposed to just a "full name"

Because that's also a cultural bias from (some) western countries. And even then some countries that "insist" on First/Last name don't have Middle names.

You might also want to split First/Last names to display things like Mr. Smith

In practice (especially for government purposes), John Smith is not only John Smith, but John Smith born in Day-Month-Year, in City, etc.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#33

Post by Bayart »

School-Cotton wrote: post #26
wtmt wrote: post #4

The insistence on a surname is quite annoying for people who don't have one or use one. In India, there are many cultures where a surname or family name isn't used or isn't passed down from one generation to another and to the next and so on. There are cultures where a surname is used. But what's very common across the country is addressing people by their first (or only) names whether or not one is close to them. Ev…

In some Western European cultures (Portuguese and Spanish, and thereby Latin American), most people have two last names. When dealing with automated systems in other countries, it causes all manner of problems!

Or having to give your « middle name » in the Anglosphere ! Try explaining you have three to a clerk...

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#35

Post by Iv »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #29
Iv wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep seeing people from US and UK equating IDs with totalitarianism. Why? I don't follow the reasoning here. I believe all Americans have a social security number, right? And all passport holders have a de-facto global UID (but not everyone has a passport and bi-nationals may have several) I don't see what this enables that would be impossible without.

The UK has no requirement for ID. The old WW2 ID was abolished in the early 50s as an infringement of civil liberties. The idea being that a citizen can go about their lawful business without interruption unless suspected of something. IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. A passport or driving licence forms a de facto ID, but both of those are voluntary, and th…

> IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion.

Is the existence of an ID really the problem there?

I like the idea that having to provide an ID is optional and the police can't force someone to comply without a good reason, but the existence of an UID for people seems really necessary in a lot of cases, to prove someone did not vote 10 times in an election, to track your pension state, your debts, your condemnations (I don't want someone to confuse me with a criminal of the same name!)

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#36

Post by Iv »

TuringNYC wrote: post #25
Iv wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep seeing people from US and UK equating IDs with totalitarianism. Why? I don't follow the reasoning here. I believe all Americans have a social security number, right? And all passport holders have a de-facto global UID (but not everyone has a passport and bi-nationals may have several) I don't see what this enables that would be impossible without.

I think there are several reasons: 1. Centralization gives provides a juicy target for misuse/negligence by both legitimate (see: Equifax) and illegitimate (see: Cambridge Analytica). De-centralization allows a preferable level of chaos 1. Historically there has been an attempt at balancing federal (national) vs local (state) powers. 2. The country can probably not even agree on one standard -- some states for exampl…

Cambridge Analytica did not rely on any centralized ID scheme. Just Facebook ID.

What you want are strong privacy laws. GDPR is overdue in USA.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#37

Post by NeedMoreTea »

Iv wrote: post #7
wtmt wrote: post #4

The insistence on a surname is quite annoying for people who don't have one or use one. In India, there are many cultures where a surname or family name isn't used or isn't passed down from one generation to another and to the next and so on. There are cultures where a surname is used. But what's very common across the country is addressing people by their first (or only) names whether or not one is close to them. Ev…

There was a stand up comedian of Algerian descent explaining that situation when the French administration tries to do the census of their colony. The custom was to use your father's and grandfather's name as a name. Problem is, many people, including brothers would have the most popular name (I think it was Mohammed). Having a Mohammed, son of Mohammed, grandson of Mohammed was common. So the French admninistration…

> Family names start appearing when you need to be able to identify a person unambiguously among the population of a big country

Pretty sure they go back further than that. Family names that are former patronymics (Svenson, Stevenson, Godwinson etc) are notably more common in Northern England than Southern. Reason being that was the Danelaw part of England where the Vikings held sway until roughly the Norman Conquest - 1066. They've stuck around as family names for over a thousand years.

The Domesday book was a survey of landowners and their holdings - mere peasants were listed numerically by class amongst the other holdings of the landowner, for tax and military purposes. The next attempt at a similar census was the mid 19th century. :)

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#38

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

Iv wrote: post #13
vpzom wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hopefully one day we have a UID for humans[…] that sounds really dangerous

I keep seeing people from US and UK equating IDs with totalitarianism. Why? I don't follow the reasoning here. I believe all Americans have a social security number, right? And all passport holders have a de-facto global UID (but not everyone has a passport and bi-nationals may have several) I don't see what this enables that would be impossible without.

The only reason for a UID is to track what you do. A world full of events where that is a pressing need is a frightening one.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#39

Post by NeedMoreTea »

Iv wrote: post #35
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has no requirement for ID. The old WW2 ID was abolished in the early 50s as an infringement of civil liberties. The idea being that a citizen can go about their lawful business without interruption unless suspected of something. IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. A passport or driving licence forms a de facto ID, but both of those are voluntary, and th…

> IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. Is the existence of an ID really the problem there? I like the idea that having to provide an ID is optional and the police can't force someone to comply without a good reason, but the existence of an UID for people seems really necessary in a lot of cases, to prove someone did not vote 10 times in an election, to track yo…

UID per se no. Asking for it, most definitely yes. This is a hill I would die on. I have a passport and driving licence. I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days. Every other production of ID is optional, except passport at international ports. No ID needed for NHS care, dental care - there's an NHS number but I haven't the foggiest what it is. It's unconnected with my criminal record or lack, my debts, my pension etc etc. To vote I have to be on the electoral role, which is a special purpose UID, and can be hidden from public view. None of these are wrapped in an all encompassing national ID. They are specific to purpose, and should remain localised to that purpose. e.g. My employer will want my NI Number for pension and tax contributions.

I don't have to produce ID to the police, though I can be asked to identify myself. If arrested and I claim to be Winston Churchill I can probably expect a little more than average checking.

Circumstantial proof of ID is more than enough in most cases. If I want to apply for my first passport there are ways of acceptably identifying myself without any other form of ID.

We've managed without for 70 years without reducing ourselves to a banana republic (You may feel Brexit is doing that). :)

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#40

Post by abdullahkhalids »

wtmt wrote: post #4

The insistence on a surname is quite annoying for people who don't have one or use one. In India, there are many cultures where a surname or family name isn't used or isn't passed down from one generation to another and to the next and so on. There are cultures where a surname is used. But what's very common across the country is addressing people by their first (or only) names whether or not one is close to them. Ev…

I have seen the following variations in Pakistan. Given name is what people prefer to be called informally. * marks if people strongly prefer to be referred to by this name in a formal setting. Prefixes are usually religious in nature (Muhammad/Syed) and then you are never supposed to use them except when reading out the full name.

FamilyName GivenName*

GivenName FamilyName

GivenName* Father'sGivenName

GivenName Father'sGivenName FamilyName

Father'sGivenName GivenName FamilyName

Prefix GivenName*

My name is of the third type and as a scientist it annoys me immensely that my work is referred to by my Father'sGivenName in western culture when no one has ever called me that in real life in my culture.

Source: my own comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19973627

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