A new study of rudeness in the workplace • Hacker News Board

Re: A new study of rudeness in the workplace

#31

Post by rfrey » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #30

rfrey wrote: post #13

In 25 years of working in the software industry, I have never witnessed somebody's assholity defended by their performance. I have also never encountered... NEVER encountered... an asshole who was also a top performer. In contrast, the top 7 performers I can think of off the top of my head were to a person kind, generous with their knowledge, patient with those less talented, and generally Good People, both to work w…

Isn't Linus Torvalds a pretty strong counter-example to this?

Yeah, that's totally on point. Discussions about Torvalds show the opposite of what I claimed. I wonder what he's like in person.

Re: A new study of rudeness in the workplace

#32

Post by riantogo » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

mharroun wrote: post #2

How do you define being rude? From what I read and experienced in my career the real reason "rude" people get away with what they are doing is simple. They tend to be top or above average performers who don't like when co-workers who are sub par are treated and rewarded as their equals. I have met many sub-par workers who love to throw around the word "toxic" to define and attack such people. I have seen such "rude"…

“Top or above average” in what? Apparently not in being a team player. And I don’t think “writes excellent code” is the only criteria in any serious performance evaluation.

Re: A new study of rudeness in the workplace

#33

Post by confidentlake » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 10:55 PM UTC

mharroun wrote: post #2

How do you define being rude? From what I read and experienced in my career the real reason "rude" people get away with what they are doing is simple. They tend to be top or above average performers who don't like when co-workers who are sub par are treated and rewarded as their equals. I have met many sub-par workers who love to throw around the word "toxic" to define and attack such people. I have seen such "rude"…

In any population there is going to be a bell curve in terms of performance. Often those on the left may simply not be as smart or talented. Being rude to them does nothing to make them better.

Re: A new study of rudeness in the workplace

#34

Post by saghm » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 11:00 PM UTC

mharroun wrote: post #11

bigred100 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like something a coworker would write. Unfortunately the individual was not actually a top performer—just convinced that he was. He would consistently say things that were objectively wrong (lot of math in our field... pretty easy to verify with certainty whether someone knows what he’s talking about), but the rest of us were polite enough not to point his misunderstandings out very often as he would frea…

So why wasn't he terminated if he had sub par performance and was also someone who causes friction? Did no one speak up about the issue... or is that "rude" behavior? To me is sound that 1 of 3 things are happening: - Management sucks and cannot objectively see who is successful as doing what. - The person is not subpar and that is your own personal feelings - Most of the company's full of "nice guys/girls" and the b…

> He was basically above average, convinced he was several standard deviations above everyone else

From GP's own words, this person was _not_ subpar, just not nearly as good as they thought they were. I don't think most comapanies would fire someone for that.

Re: A new study of rudeness in the workplace

#35

Post by oceanghost » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 11:11 PM UTC

Workplaces are a frappe of personality disorders and mental illness. People who were raised to be polite, people who weren't, and sprinkle in one psychopath and one or two sociopaths per one hundred people. Think about all the crazy people you've ever known? They all cause just as much trouble at work as in their personal lives, and they all have to work somewhere.

Even relatively well-intentioned people are usually insufferable. To say nothing of power politics, purposefully toxic environments, etc.

Politeness is the lubricant of social relationships, but rudeness is a powerful signaler.

I am normally polite, but unafraid to be rude or aggressive when politeness fails. Most often, rudeness indicates some portion of the social contract has not been upheld (treat me fairly, and I shall do so). Is it wrong for an employee to be rude to someone who is secretly undermining them? To a boss whose using them?

Rudeness is simply a social signal. I think it is more stressful to be polite all the time.

I could write a book on the crazy shs I've had to work with.

Re: A new study of rudeness in the workplace

#36

Post by bradleyjg » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

mharroun wrote: post #17

usefulcat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I will note that although I have never met an asshole who was a top performer, I have met many who were convinced that they were. Definitely this. I find that insecurity also correlates strongly with the above description.

So what do you label someone who does most of the work while other contribute little to nothing? How to they profess that and not be labeled an asshole?

> So what do you label someone who does most of the work while other contribute little to nothing?

Most of the time: the guy that’s going to leave an overly clever undocumented, unmaintable mess. Bonus points if it’s in a language that none of the rest of the company uses.

Contemporary development is a team sport.

Re: A new study of rudeness in the workplace

#37

Post by NPMaxwell » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 11:20 PM UTC

I'm interested that this article was posted by kungfudoi to Hacker News in the afternoon 18 days ago (not on a Saturday morning) and garnered 2 points and zero comments. This posting misrepresents the title/headline of the article and acquires 33 comments and 42 points. I bumped into the article today and was about to post it, but noticed that it had already been posted. Perhaps I should follow pseudolos's lead, and post it anyway. My earlier impression was "don't repost", and "don't rewrite titles or headlines."

Re: A new study of rudeness in the workplace

#38

Post by mwfunk » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 11:21 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #13

In 25 years of working in the software industry, I have never witnessed somebody's assholity defended by their performance. I have also never encountered... NEVER encountered... an asshole who was also a top performer. In contrast, the top 7 performers I can think of off the top of my head were to a person kind, generous with their knowledge, patient with those less talented, and generally Good People, both to work w…

Same. Not quite 25 years, but 20+. I've worked with assholes who thought they were the top performers, but I've never worked with top performers who were assholes. It's part of what makes them assholes- to them, it's just some heroic narrative about how they're no-nonsense 10xer straight shooters who get things done and don't tolerate fools, but what they're oblivious to is how much different that looks from the outside looking in. How other people see them is very different from how they see themselves, but part of their identity is intentionally rooted in not thinking about that. Nobody sees anyone's internal monologues or perceptions of the world around them or their heroic life narratives that they tell themselves about themselves, they only see someone who thinks they've magically earned the right to be a jerk based on their perception of their own awesomeness, which (at least in my experience) they aren't.

Re: A new study of rudeness in the workplace

#39

Post by doubleunplussed » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 11:21 PM UTC

caminante wrote: post #18

>Notably, those employees who reported being victims of rudeness were largely perceived by their managers as perpetrators of rude behavior. The article and research abstract [0] doesn't appear to address the most interesting point. I want to know why the victim blaming persists. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30640491

There's victim-blaming and there's victim-playing. They're both real phenomena, and I wouldn't want to assume I was looking at one and not the other without having a closer look.

Re: A new study of rudeness in the workplace

#40

Post by mprev » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 11:23 PM UTC

trabant00 wrote: post #27

I'm quite often rude to others at work and I freely admit it. Reason: ofc I feel I am justified to be so. Just like everybody else I feel I am right. I am not rude to everybody. Just people who don't want to carry their weight but want an equal share of the pie. I am rude to Project "Managers" who only assign story points in jira. To product owners who always side with the external client and dump the technical team…

You sound exhausting to be around. Your comment about burnout is either a humble brag or an admission that this isn’t even working for you.

You get one life. Stop glorying in being a jerk. If you’re as brilliant as you say you are then humility and kindness will make you even more brilliant.