Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#111

Post by afiori » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 11:38 AM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #26

wtmt wrote: post #4

The insistence on a surname is quite annoying for people who don't have one or use one. In India, there are many cultures where a surname or family name isn't used or isn't passed down from one generation to another and to the next and so on. There are cultures where a surname is used. But what's very common across the country is addressing people by their first (or only) names whether or not one is close to them. Ev…

In some Western European cultures (Portuguese and Spanish, and thereby Latin American), most people have two last names. When dealing with automated systems in other countries, it causes all manner of problems!

I know someone who went to study one year in Portugal, one of the things she noticed was that most students' full name would fill more than two thirds of a printed A4 paper.

That for sure would cause problems in some standard forms.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#112

Post by jaclaz » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 11:48 AM UTC

klez wrote: post #65

DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

I worked in insurance for over five years. One of the more common reasons we had to send out HIPAA notification letters was due to relatives in the same city with similar or identical names getting claims processed under the wrong policy. These were very often two male relatives -- father and son, twin brothers, cousins. They sometimes even lived on the same street. There's also this story about two women with the sa…

Here in Italy we are given a Codice Fiscale at birth, which is a string of 13 characters derived by 3 letters of the last name, 3 letters of the first name (usually these 6 letters are all consonants, but there are exceptions for names like Anna), 2 digits, a letter and two other digits representing the birth day, one letter and the digits representing the birthplace an one last letter which is a checksum. These are…

To be picky, there is no "exception", there is a rule that is as follow:

For the surname get the first three consonants

For the name get the first three consonants.

If there are not enough consonants, use as many consonants there are, then start again from the beginning with vowels. If there are not enough consonants and vowels (two characters name) an X is added.

I.e. Anna is N (first consonant) N (second consonant) A (first vowel) -> NNA.

Ana would be NAA.

With a name like (say) Bo of only two letter, a X is added, i.e. BOX

https://www.paginainizio.com/service/strutturacodicefiscale....

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#113

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:03 PM UTC

kgwgk wrote: post #97

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand how. Ireland doesn't require ID either. You could visit Dublin on the ferry from England showing no papers other than your ferry ticket, bought for cash as you walked on to the boat, and I'm pretty sure vice versa. Even when there were the armed checkpoints between North and South. Did this quite a few times. I see no significant support for an "Iexit", so it can't be connected with ID, or a…

All the EU countries except for Denmark, Ireland and UK have identity cards. All the EU countries except for Ireland and UK are part of the Schengen Area (or are obliged to join in the future, for some recent members). It remains to be seen what Ireland status is once UK is out, depending on what kind of border is put in place between them. The trend in the EU is for more control (regarding IDs and in many other issu…

That neatly demonstrates the idiocy of Brexit: The UK, Ireland, Channel Islands and Isle of Man have had a common travel area since before WW2, requiring no papers. Which could easily disintegrate with the way our govt is going about Brexit, and would cause issues. Complete freedom from papers changed 15 or 20 years ago for air travel in that it got silly: you "had to prove that you didn't need to prove your ID, by having Irish or British ID". The ferry kept on requiring nothing at all, I don't know if that's changed since.

The trend in the EU has been for removing ID to travel between countries within the zone. As far as I am aware once you're inside the Schengen zone ID rules remain whatever is the case within the country. i.e. Denmark wasn't required to make ID compulsory to be within the system, it's only supposed to be travel in and out of the zone that's affected is it not? There don't seem to be moves to change. Obviously a Dane would carry some ID when visiting France or another EU country requiring it.

Course there's all the "temporary" internal borders inside Schengen for migrant or terrorist checks etc that weakens the whole concept.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#114

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:15 PM UTC

yxhuvud wrote: post #103

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has no requirement for ID. The old WW2 ID was abolished in the early 50s as an infringement of civil liberties. The idea being that a citizen can go about their lawful business without interruption unless suspected of something. IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. A passport or driving licence forms a de facto ID, but both of those are voluntary, and th…

You may not have any requirement for ID, but to actually function in the society you need one. So in practice you do need one. As for carrying them, yeah, that should not be necessary.

Hmm. You need very occasionally, such as when opening a new bank account, to prove name and address - a utility or council tax bill, letter from the tax office, or even previous bank or a mortgage statement etc will generally suffice. There's a fair list of what is and isn't accepted, and it's fairly infrequently needed. Like only when creating a new and often financial relationship.

Can't remember the last time - ten years perhaps. Someone young setting up lots of things for the first time, much more often.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#115

Post by checktheorder » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:16 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #100

buildzr wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful with that - my friends enjoy an automatic level of anonymity even if they publish something under their real names, but my real name is rare enough that it points directly to me and me alone on Google results.

As far as I know my name is globally unique. Feature of a rare last name (two farmers in two different parts of Norway independently intentionally picked the same misspelling of a more common name to set themselves apart from nearby farms about 200 years ago; only descendants of those two have my last name, and half of them are related to me) coupled with a relatively rare first name. Annoying when it comes to anonym…

>Annoying when it comes to anonymity, but sometimes it's nice being able to be identified by name alone.

I love having a modern-day superpower: online search anonymity. I have one of the most common firstname/lastname combos in the western world. I don't seen to show up on Google at all, even if you include my middle name. The last time I tried the "search for yourself" experiment I got to about page 200 of Google results that weren't actually me before I gave up. Combine that with my avoidance of social media, and it's like I'm off-the-grid without actually having to be off-the-grid.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#116

Post by Ayesh » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:16 PM UTC

My name has 6 parts.

In Sri Lanka, it's common to have a family name and a surname. Many Sri Lankan have super long full names that often don't even fit in Western forms.

Further more, my brother and I (who we share both parents) have 4 names that are common.

In a name like "A B C X Y Z", - A is often a name from the generation. You can judge how prestigious the family is by the name. - B is sometimes not present, but if it is, it is an adjective to emphasize said A. - C is often to indicate a relationship. I don't think we have more than 100 in the country. - X and Y are the typical first and middle names. - Z is the last name.

One advantage I can think of is that, I can share a flight ticket with my brother and father!

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#117

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:23 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #92

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UID per se no. Asking for it, most definitely yes. This is a hill I would die on. I have a passport and driving licence. I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days. Every other production of ID is optional, except passport at international ports. No ID needed for NHS care, dental care - there's an NHS number but I…

> I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days You must stop when asked to by a police officer. They don't have to suspect an offence. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/163 You must produce, when asked, your documents. They don't have to suspect an offence. Not producing when asked is committing a…

> stop when asked to by a police officer

My mistake, I thought there was a need for cause for a producer. Such as the made up "faulty brake light" that miraculously starts working again when you have stopped, or you just got pulled for speeding etc. :)

> prove ID if you get secondary care

Yeah, that's the newly minted, and rather offensive regs from Theresa, in the govt mission against immigration, most of which always been from outside the EU. It was previously much the same for Brits and EU citizens as I understand it. From a quick glance of the link it seems to generate a couple of absurdities along the prove you don't need to prove ID lines that's been in the UK:Ireland travel area a while.

ID to the police or PCSO

Yes, they can ask for my name and address, and I'm expected to be truthful as they may check. They can't demand documentary evidence of same such as my papers or driving licence when not in control of a vehicle.

They might go away and check against their records, electoral role and so on. They might ask if I can confirm this, and much of the time I can honestly answer "no" without problem. They'll have more to say if I claim to be M. Mouse of 10 Downing St. Obviously if arrested they can search and find any circumstantial or actual evidence of ID, like a bank card or driving licence, that will hopefully match the name provided earlier.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#118

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:26 PM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #85

aasasd wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afaik a name was/is believed to have the power to summon a supernatural being that it identifies. God and the devil both have a dozen or more euphemisms. (I've also heard about a rather non-Christiany belief of ‘true names’ having command over some beings, but not sure that it's not a modern fantasy invention.) Dunno about material beings, but hiccups are believed in some places to be caused by someone remembering yo…

It was absolutely a thing, and the best example is that the old Indo-European word for bear is eradicated in Northern European languages, because it was thought that the true name of the animal would summon it, and bears were not something you wanted around. So instead of using the taboo name, everyone used the noa name for the animal, a euphemism, which is why "bear" actually means "the brown one". In Slavic languag…

There is also the French saying: "quand on parle du loup, il sort du bois" [1]. Literally "when you speak of the wolf he comes out of the woods", known in English as "speak of the devil".

__________

[1] Also: "... on en voit la queue" or "le nez", i.e. "you see his tail" or "his nose".

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#119

Post by bonoboTP » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:27 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #67

kijin wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really shouldn't be a problem in the modern age when each person can be assigned a globally (or at least nationally) unique ID number as soon as their birth certificate is produced. It baffles me that the most technologically advanced country in the world still has difficulties figuring out who has the right to vote.

A lot of people in the US just don't like the idea of a central national database that stores information about them. To be sure, this (increasingly) happens at some level anyway. And to a lot of people in, say, Europe this probably seems like a baffling concern. But it's the way it is.

Yeah, but corporate databases documenting every small detail of their life like who they meet, their location history, chat history with friends and family, etc, all that is fine. Because it's not the government... Never mind that the govt has access through prism and other channels... It really baffles me how voter ID is such a huge issue, but most Americans voluntarily offer up so much of their private info to online social netwoks.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#120

Post by kragen » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:28 PM UTC

Iv wrote: post #13

vpzom wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hopefully one day we have a UID for humans[…] that sounds really dangerous

I keep seeing people from US and UK equating IDs with totalitarianism. Why? I don't follow the reasoning here. I believe all Americans have a social security number, right? And all passport holders have a de-facto global UID (but not everyone has a passport and bi-nationals may have several) I don't see what this enables that would be impossible without.

Like most measures that give more power to governments, it makes things easier for them, not possible. Are you honestly not aware of how unique permanent identifying numbers give governments more power over the people thus numbered? There are examples in the article.

US passports, among others, do not have a number identifying the holder, only the passport. Each time you replace the passport, every ten years or less, you get a new number. The passport also does not bear the social security number.