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Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

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Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#91

Post by NeedMoreTea »

kgwgk wrote: post #82
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UID per se no. Asking for it, most definitely yes. This is a hill I would die on. I have a passport and driving licence. I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days. Every other production of ID is optional, except passport at international ports. No ID needed for NHS care, dental care - there's an NHS number but I…

Note that, right or wrong, this is the kind of attitude that made Brexit happen.

I really don't understand how.

Ireland doesn't require ID either. You could visit Dublin on the ferry from England showing no papers other than your ferry ticket, bought for cash as you walked on to the boat, and I'm pretty sure vice versa. Even when there were the armed checkpoints between North and South. Did this quite a few times. I see no significant support for an "Iexit", so it can't be connected with ID, or attitudes to it, but the disingenuous politicians and right of centre British media stories on the EU. Murdoch et al.

As far as I know no EU citizens were required to have additional identity requirements, or present anything for NHS treatment, until the actions of the current and previous Tory governments. Which I found offensive in the extreme. FWIW I voted remain.

If I travel to a country in the EU or elsewhere that requires ID, I carry ID. I'd have my passport anyway. I might wish they had a similar attitude to ID, for the reasons stated.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#92

Post by DanBC »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #39
Iv wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. Is the existence of an ID really the problem there? I like the idea that having to provide an ID is optional and the police can't force someone to comply without a good reason, but the existence of an UID for people seems really necessary in a lot of cases, to prove someone did not vote 10 times in an election, to track yo…

UID per se no. Asking for it, most definitely yes. This is a hill I would die on. I have a passport and driving licence. I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days. Every other production of ID is optional, except passport at international ports. No ID needed for NHS care, dental care - there's an NHS number but I…

> I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days

You must stop when asked to by a police officer. They don't have to suspect an offence. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/163

You must produce, when asked, your documents. They don't have to suspect an offence. Not producing when asked is committing an offence, but there's a defence if you produce your papers within 7 days at your nearest police station. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164

> No ID needed for NHS care,

There's no ID needed for primary care or emergency care. You may be asked to prove ID if you get secondary care. The NHS number is irrelevant for whether you get charged or not.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

> I don't have to produce ID to the police

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

It is an offence to refuse to give your details or to give false details to a PCSO (so not even a police officer) if they think you have littered or they think you have behaved anti-socially. Or they think you're part of a group that includes some people who've behaved anti-socially and they've asked the group to disperse.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#93

Post by mikorym »

klez wrote: post #65
DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

I worked in insurance for over five years. One of the more common reasons we had to send out HIPAA notification letters was due to relatives in the same city with similar or identical names getting claims processed under the wrong policy. These were very often two male relatives -- father and son, twin brothers, cousins. They sometimes even lived on the same street. There's also this story about two women with the sa…

Here in Italy we are given a Codice Fiscale at birth, which is a string of 13 characters derived by 3 letters of the last name, 3 letters of the first name (usually these 6 letters are all consonants, but there are exceptions for names like Anna), 2 digits, a letter and two other digits representing the birth day, one letter and the digits representing the birthplace an one last letter which is a checksum. These are…

For administrative purposes it makes sense to uniquely identify people, but for privacy purposes it is a feature to not be uniquely identifiable. I don't think one can get around that tradeoff. In South Africa, if you have someone's ID and also their tax number then it is very easy to commit fraud.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#94

Post by fouc »

leemailll wrote: post #69
Thorrez wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thanks to my ex and I both having first-hand experience with family members having similar names, we both agreed on making sure our children had names that wouldn't cause that type of issue for them. My aunt was in that same position, tired of her name being confused with other people in the family. So she named her 3 daughters 3 names unique from anyone in the family. Then 3 of her brothers in law married 3 women…

that's an amazing coincidence

Or it was a well-planned prank/revenge.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#95

Post by carlob »

klez wrote: post #65
DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

I worked in insurance for over five years. One of the more common reasons we had to send out HIPAA notification letters was due to relatives in the same city with similar or identical names getting claims processed under the wrong policy. These were very often two male relatives -- father and son, twin brothers, cousins. They sometimes even lived on the same street. There's also this story about two women with the sa…

Here in Italy we are given a Codice Fiscale at birth, which is a string of 13 characters derived by 3 letters of the last name, 3 letters of the first name (usually these 6 letters are all consonants, but there are exceptions for names like Anna), 2 digits, a letter and two other digits representing the birth day, one letter and the digits representing the birthplace an one last letter which is a checksum. These are…

Also in Italy: my mom has several middle names and she has one set on her national ID, another on her driver's license and the codice fiscale was calculated with only the first given name.

She's having so much trouble opening a new bank account that she's probably going to legally change her name (rather than her codice fiscale).

I agree with you that in general this system works pretty well, but we also have our nagging issues.

In general the problem is that most automated systems ask you for all the info necessary to compute your codice fiscale and then double check what you've entered, if you're one of those cases where one letter had to be changed or something like that, most online forms will complain and give no possibility of recourse.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#96

Post by fouc »

ddlatham wrote: post #24
dredmorbius wrote: post #5

Naming is an interesting thing. I'm wrestling with it from another contex presently. I'm reminded of the lines from Homer. in which the hero (himself given at least two names within the text, including one in its title) unambiguously (and rather rashly as it happens) identifies himself to Polyphemus: Cyclops, if any man of mortal birth Note thine unseemly blindness and inquire The occasion, tell him that Laertes' son…

And I'm reminded of a time in college when my roommate, who majored in classics, came home from class today and told me that they discussed a theory that the Iliad and Odyssey, were not actually written by Homer, but rather by a different place poet who happened to have the same name. "So they were actually written by Homer then?" I thought it hilarious, because the only identity of Homer I knew was the guy who wrote…

I heard there was a similar confusion with Jesus Christ, basically another prophet of the same name around the same time. One got killed on the cross but the other one lived, leading to the 'came back from death' rebirth story.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#97

Post by kgwgk »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #91
kgwgk wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that, right or wrong, this is the kind of attitude that made Brexit happen.

I really don't understand how. Ireland doesn't require ID either. You could visit Dublin on the ferry from England showing no papers other than your ferry ticket, bought for cash as you walked on to the boat, and I'm pretty sure vice versa. Even when there were the armed checkpoints between North and South. Did this quite a few times. I see no significant support for an "Iexit", so it can't be connected with ID, or a…

All the EU countries except for Denmark, Ireland and UK have identity cards.

All the EU countries except for Ireland and UK are part of the Schengen Area (or are obliged to join in the future, for some recent members). It remains to be seen what Ireland status is once UK is out, depending on what kind of border is put in place between them.

The trend in the EU is for more control (regarding IDs and in many other issues) and this was not well appreciated by many UK citizens.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#98

Post by hyperman1 »

mikorym wrote: post #93
klez wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Italy we are given a Codice Fiscale at birth, which is a string of 13 characters derived by 3 letters of the last name, 3 letters of the first name (usually these 6 letters are all consonants, but there are exceptions for names like Anna), 2 digits, a letter and two other digits representing the birth day, one letter and the digits representing the birthplace an one last letter which is a checksum. These are…

For administrative purposes it makes sense to uniquely identify people, but for privacy purposes it is a feature to not be uniquely identifiable. I don't think one can get around that tradeoff. In South Africa, if you have someone's ID and also their tax number then it is very easy to commit fraud.

Not sure. It also means you get blamed for crimes from your same-nameds.

I hear stories from the USA where repo men try to pin debts on the wrong people, etc.

The rest of the first world mostly has a unique ID for each resident, plus laws that stop abusing it. This seems vastly preferrable.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#99

Post by dTal »

mindcrime wrote: post #53
DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

I worked in insurance for over five years. One of the more common reasons we had to send out HIPAA notification letters was due to relatives in the same city with similar or identical names getting claims processed under the wrong policy. These were very often two male relatives -- father and son, twin brothers, cousins. They sometimes even lived on the same street. There's also this story about two women with the sa…

Very true. I've experienced a bit of this first-hand. Growing up, I, my father, and my paternal grandfather all shared the same first name and last name, and all lived within a couple of miles of each other (my father and I obviously lived in the same residence a big chunk of my childhood, and grandpa lived just a short hop away). Our mail (and gosh knows what else) got mixed up all the time. To make it even worse, I…

>and phone calls are always weird when I answer "Hi, this is Phil" and the person on the other end goes "Oh, sorry, I was calling for $FIRST_NAME".

So don't answer the phone that way. There's no reason to volunteer info to a complete stranger you know nothing about anyway. All you have to do is say "Hello?" Then the caller will say "I'm looking for ", and then you can handle it however you like.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#100

Post by vidarh »

buildzr wrote: post #49
DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

I worked in insurance for over five years. One of the more common reasons we had to send out HIPAA notification letters was due to relatives in the same city with similar or identical names getting claims processed under the wrong policy. These were very often two male relatives -- father and son, twin brothers, cousins. They sometimes even lived on the same street. There's also this story about two women with the sa…

Be careful with that - my friends enjoy an automatic level of anonymity even if they publish something under their real names, but my real name is rare enough that it points directly to me and me alone on Google results.

As far as I know my name is globally unique.

Feature of a rare last name (two farmers in two different parts of Norway independently intentionally picked the same misspelling of a more common name to set themselves apart from nearby farms about 200 years ago; only descendants of those two have my last name, and half of them are related to me) coupled with a relatively rare first name.

Annoying when it comes to anonymity, but sometimes it's nice being able to be identified by name alone.

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