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I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

independent.co.uk

121–130 of 202 posts

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#121
> "I was able to ask my PhD college, and several other institutions, to see all emails in which my name appeared ..."

How are different people with the same name distinguished in these cases?

Name might be (almost) unambiguous for some people, but lots of us have many, many namesakes. Is the institution required to reliably tell apart which of the messages were meaning the person making the information request, and which were talking about someone else? What are the penalties for leaking emails that were discussing someone else who has the same name?

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#122
I think people should keep a few things in mind.

First, we have only one side of the story. The claim is the advisor never spoke to her about the problems he had with her, and we shouldn't simply assume the claim is true. OTOH, I can easily believe it is, given my experience in grad school. While some professors were quite fussy about quality in the thesis, others accepted that most PhD's (in engineering) are not targeting scientific research after the degree, and lower the standards to allow them to graduate. But they absolutely will not support such people in getting a research position at a university or a government lab. Some are open about it: "If you're targeting research and want my recommendations for that endeavor, this is what you need to do. If not, then all you need is X, Y and Z." Unfortunately, not all advisors are as frank.

Also keep in mind that the person may well have been a very competent researcher, while simultaneously being hard to work with. It's quite fair to point it out when asked, and it's quite fair to disrecommend someone because of it.

I don't think the article presents any evidence of active blacklisting, where one is going out of their way to tell everyone (without solicitation) "Don't hire this person!"

Finally, the real issue: What role should references play in the hiring process? I personally would love a world where we never rely on letters of recommendation and references - I think they are the weakest link in the hiring process. However, if we do accept references/letters of recommendation, then everything in the article is fair game. If you ever asked someone what they thought of a candidate before hiring them, you are part of the same culture that this person's advisor is.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#123
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So personal recommandations should be disclosed ? That kinda goes against the point of trying to have an open discussion about a potential appliant. And what would the recourse be anyways ? What good would a talk do, since admittedly it's a person and not a work problem ? Do any good come out of people explaining how they despise your attitude, especially with high stakes, where no response will ever bring closure ?…

If she knew that her academic career prospects were being sabotaged by her advisor rather than having her mental health deteriorate while failing to pursue an academic career in her field, she could have pivoted to industry or a separate topic.

In which case she might be able to burn bridges, and call out people, and just tell her side of the story, if she... dunno... published it somewhere.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#124
post #82

>I was able to ask my PhD college, and several other institutions, to see all emails in which my name appeared in either the subject line or the body of the email. The scariest part is that this is apparently possible in countries under the jurisdiction of GDPR now (and possibly even outside of it). Your private emails talking about a third party might be exposed at the request of the said third party. Does no one el…

From the UK's ICO on the GDPR:

> Domestic purposes – personal data processed in the course of a purely personal or household activity, with no connection to a professional or commercial activity, is outside the GDPR’s scope. This means that if you only use personal data for such things as writing to friends and family or taking pictures for your own enjoyment, you are not subject to the GDPR.

"Your private emails" are therefore not covered by the GDPR.

Unless your definition of "your" private emails includes those you send in your work capacity?

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#125
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's suppose you're right and non-determinism doesn't exist. (Quantum physics apparently disagrees, but never mind that.) It doesn't matter. Treating people as though they have agency is still necessary, because how we treat them would affect their deterministic state function. If someone commits murder and we say it was only a product of their environment and they have no agency, therefore we shouldn't punish them,…

Also, the paradox is that it doesn't matter one bit whether free will exists or not. Because either it does and we are making conscious choices and everything that normally follows with that. Or it doesn't and everything we say, do, and think is predetermined. However, if that's the case, then you are predetermined to be someone to be swayed by certain arguments. You are predetermined to either believe or not in free…

Well, I'm proclaiming free will doesn't exist. Neuroscience exhibits supporting evidence that we don't have free will. There hasn't been anything exhibiting that we have free will.

Your rhetoric that nothing matters could have been used when people assumed the world was flat and others were challenging that popular assumption. Nonetheless, the world gets better overtime and when people have a realistic understanding of reality.

So change does happen but yes it's going to happen whether we like it to or not. That's a thrilling thing to observe and to be aware of that nature of reality is a good thing.

> murderers should be punished.

No, they should be rehabilitated and educated of the cause & effect for their actions. Otherwise humanity is failing the unfortunate that didn't have any real control.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a good example, Communism abrogates spirituality. It's intrinsically barren and illegitimate. The CCP, founded on a lie, can never afford the truth. And, indeed, we find them trying to maintain a fabricated history to maintain their power. (The "incident" in the Square, the name of Taiwan, and so on.) Generally, there is a correlation between personal power and integrity.

Not sure why you got downvoted. It's an honest observation.

Maybe it's worth stating that I consider myself pro-China. I'm anti-communist. If anything I'm a bit of a Sinophile. IMO the Tao Te Ching is one of the greatest books in the world, for example.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#127
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free will is an illusion and simply it doesn't exist. You cannot make either a choice or decision that's truly your own. Simply, you cannot without being effected by the system you're in. People don't choose the life they're born into and why does anything that comes after birth be assumed differently. The answer cultural conditioning and from religious ideology that has rooted deeply into society. The belief that go…

>Free will is an illusion and simply it doesn't exist. I'll ante with Pascal's wager and say it does exist. If I'm right, then I'm right. If I'm wrong, then the whole notion of right and wrong aren't applicable to reality, no different than CH4 + 2O2 => CO2 + 2H2O just being and not having a right or wrong to it. Unless there is an alternative to the options free will exists and free will does not exist, then this wa…

Pascal's wager (the original) has a flaw in it. One doesn't know and or can prove if God is evil. So I don't really know how else to respond to what you wrote.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#128
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GRPR forces institutions to be open with their disciplinary processes. But a problem with this is that by the nature of disciplinary processes, it may or may not be appropriate to fully disclose what is being investigated to the subject of the investigation in real time. Much the same ethical and practical issues arise as when the police are investigating someone for suspected criminal behaviour. Indeed, in some case…

GDPR allows you to stall people for at least a month, which is hardly "real time", and also to not disclose information which would affect the privacy of others.

But neither of those is necessarily sufficient for the sorts of situations I'm talking about here.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#129
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free will is an illusion and simply it doesn't exist. You cannot make either a choice or decision that's truly your own. Simply, you cannot without being effected by the system you're in. People don't choose the life they're born into and why does anything that comes after birth be assumed differently. The answer cultural conditioning and from religious ideology that has rooted deeply into society. The belief that go…

I agree with you 100%, but I think it's better to 'choose' to believe you can do better, despite knowing, factually, that you are just a product of your environment. In other words, "I can improve myself" is a pragmatic outlook. Of course, you can respond with "but you can't even choose that outlook", which I don't disagree with.

> but I think it's better to 'choose' to believe you can do better

I disagree, I theorize it's the same as when the majority of humanity wanted to believe the world is flat and or there is a God that judges us all. Society is the outcome of the majority consensus. So basically I assume many lives are being punished because the majority consensus doesn't understand cause & effect.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#130
post #21

You can generally do the same thing in the US for emails to/from public university addresses with a FOIA request. This seems kind of wild to me, but apparently it works.

In the US, many states have an Open Records act on the books. Typically this extends to the emails that acedemics at public universities send using their .edu addresses (among many other things). Though it varies from state to state, generally communications in and among anyone that recieves state funds in any way are considered part of the public record.

For instance, in CA the Sacremento Bee mantains a DB of all the public worker salaries, including university professor salaries, donations, grant funds, patent royalty payments, etc. It is very comprehensive and I know female acedemics that have used it to argue (suessfully) for better pay: https://www.sacbee.com/news/databases/state-pay/article22946...

In CO, there is the open records act. From what I hear, it is farily simple to obtain all emails that a professor sends out, including ones from a personal email account that happens to send out emails via a router that the state owns: https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/info_center/cora.html

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