I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails • Hacker News Board

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#91

Post by ijpoijpoihpiuoh » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

meijer wrote: post #54

hycaria wrote: post #5

>Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Aspergers could be a reasonable explanation. Easier to resort to such hypotheses than be self critical, I guess. Do we really fall in the category where one student with apparently decent thesis results gets ostarcized by her advisor AND the examiners, where no one in the faculty or comittee would stand for…

For me the point is: you should treat people well even if you don't like them. And that includes not spreading slander.

Ok, but who do you treat well in this situation? The unpleasant student, or the person who is asking for information about them? If you remain silent about your honest opinion of the student, you are potentially foisting this unpleasantness on your colleague who might hire her.

For me, the takeaway here is to be honest and to not exaggerate, especially in matters of import. You can't always do the best thing for everyone, so when that's impossible, let the truth be your guide. The other thing is that the adviser should have brought these concerns to the student while she was still under his tutelage.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#92

Post by Silhouette » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #51

GordonS wrote: post #20

> I was able to ask my PhD college, and several other institutions, to see all emails in which my name appeared in either the subject line or the body of the email Hmm, I don't think I like this, and I don't understand how the GDPR allows you to do this. While I understand that stored emails that mention you are technically "data about you", I wouldn't consider them "your data". Emails are a form of personal communic…

This has been the case under the old data protection regime as well, and indeed I know someone else who used it against an educational institution who they suspected was blacklisting them - and also turned out to be right. It's squarely within the spirit of data protection as well. Are those emails data? Yes. Do they relate to you? Yes. Are they being used to make decisions which affect your employment? Also yes. Red…

GRPR forces institutions to be open with their disciplinary processes.

But a problem with this is that by the nature of disciplinary processes, it may or may not be appropriate to fully disclose what is being investigated to the subject of the investigation in real time.

Much the same ethical and practical issues arise as when the police are investigating someone for suspected criminal behaviour. Indeed, in some cases, it may turn out that one becomes the other.

Much the same ethical and practical issues may also arise as when dealing with any sort of whistle-blowing, where there is a clear interest in protecting the privacy of the whistle-blower as long as the matter they raise and any evidence they personally contribute can be properly validated and, where appropriate, properly challenged.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#93

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:12 PM UTC

sysbin wrote: post #58

air7 wrote: post #32

> Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Asperger's could be a reasonable explanation. It's quite likely that ones background and developmental disorders shape one's personality. However, it's still their personality. So what if it has a reason? This touches on the dark abyss of "free will". In some sense all we are is a cellular-automata chugging…

Free will is an illusion and simply it doesn't exist. You cannot make either a choice or decision that's truly your own. Simply, you cannot without being effected by the system you're in. People don't choose the life they're born into and why does anything that comes after birth be assumed differently. The answer cultural conditioning and from religious ideology that has rooted deeply into society. The belief that go…

Let's suppose you're right and non-determinism doesn't exist. (Quantum physics apparently disagrees, but never mind that.)

It doesn't matter. Treating people as though they have agency is still necessary, because how we treat them would affect their deterministic state function.

If someone commits murder and we say it was only a product of their environment and they have no agency, therefore we shouldn't punish them, well, that's the sort of "choice" that, on a systemic level, causes more people to commit murder. Even if they have no "choice" in the matter -- especially then -- creating an environment in which murder has personal benefits outweighing the personal costs is societally maladaptive.

And so it is with everything else. If we want people to give to charity and go to college and not steal from others then we have to act as if they chose whether or not to do those things and reward or punish them accordingly.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#94

Post by wallace_f » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #87

mistermann wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real world is crazy. It's quite amazing how large the gap is between the way the world is described to us through various mediums, versus the clearly observable reality of it. FTA: > I approached the individuals and the institutions concerned about the content of my Subject Access Request. They all refused to discuss the matter with me, so I can only speculate as to what was going on. Of course, these people we…

The leak of Sony emails a while back revealed that high-level Sony execs seemed to emailing at the emotional maturity level of middle-schoolers.

After I had my traumatic experiences, I started thinking of it as more-like childish behavior, not even high school. Even at high school, a lot of people are the same childhood monsters with just a bit of persona, gravitas, connections and expertise. At least, that's what I thought. Some people grow out of it and become enlightened, but most don't and just become phonies.

On the other side of these experiences, when everything is going well it's easy to ignore all that's wrong with people.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#95

Post by carapace » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

traderjane wrote: post #84

motohagiography wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually believe the power networks that matter are made up of people who can afford honesty and magnanimity, and that gossips never make it above being minor gatekeepers. Low stakes players sometimes get to sit at high stakes tables, and sometimes they take out a high stakes player from that round, but they go bust pretty fast.

But a posture of honesty appears too expensive even for the Chinese ruling party; how much more power do you need?

Not a good example, Communism abrogates spirituality. It's intrinsically barren and illegitimate. The CCP, founded on a lie, can never afford the truth. And, indeed, we find them trying to maintain a fabricated history to maintain their power. (The "incident" in the Square, the name of Taiwan, and so on.)

Generally, there is a correlation between personal power and integrity.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#96

Post by SkyBelow » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

sysbin wrote: post #58

air7 wrote: post #32

> Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Asperger's could be a reasonable explanation. It's quite likely that ones background and developmental disorders shape one's personality. However, it's still their personality. So what if it has a reason? This touches on the dark abyss of "free will". In some sense all we are is a cellular-automata chugging…

Free will is an illusion and simply it doesn't exist. You cannot make either a choice or decision that's truly your own. Simply, you cannot without being effected by the system you're in. People don't choose the life they're born into and why does anything that comes after birth be assumed differently. The answer cultural conditioning and from religious ideology that has rooted deeply into society. The belief that go…

>Free will is an illusion and simply it doesn't exist.

I'll ante with Pascal's wager and say it does exist.

If I'm right, then I'm right.

If I'm wrong, then the whole notion of right and wrong aren't applicable to reality, no different than CH4 + 2O2 => CO2 + 2H2O just being and not having a right or wrong to it.

Unless there is an alternative to the options free will exists and free will does not exist, then this wager does not suffer the same flaw that the original does.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#97

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

Grue3 wrote: post #82

>I was able to ask my PhD college, and several other institutions, to see all emails in which my name appeared in either the subject line or the body of the email. The scariest part is that this is apparently possible in countries under the jurisdiction of GDPR now (and possibly even outside of it). Your private emails talking about a third party might be exposed at the request of the said third party. Does no one el…

You are the "data controller" for your own emails. Emails stored on your employer's system are under their remit as the "data controller" to whom the subject access requests will be made. Emails on your employer's system are "your" or "private" only in a very limited sense.

GDPR does not entitle random people to leaf through your gmail.

(Even without data protection law this kind of thing can still happen during the "discovery" process of a lawsuit, but that's a much higher bar.)

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#98

Post by matthewowen » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

Singletoned wrote: post #35

As a fellow Aspy, I started reading this thinking, I bet he's a bit of a difficult person. Maybe an Aspy. > Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Aspergers could be a reasonable explanation. Ah! Yes, I can guess which one of those three is the reason people found you difficult.

As a working-class northerner, I can see the case for the other two :).

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#99

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #92

pjc50 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been the case under the old data protection regime as well, and indeed I know someone else who used it against an educational institution who they suspected was blacklisting them - and also turned out to be right. It's squarely within the spirit of data protection as well. Are those emails data? Yes. Do they relate to you? Yes. Are they being used to make decisions which affect your employment? Also yes. Red…

GRPR forces institutions to be open with their disciplinary processes. But a problem with this is that by the nature of disciplinary processes, it may or may not be appropriate to fully disclose what is being investigated to the subject of the investigation in real time. Much the same ethical and practical issues arise as when the police are investigating someone for suspected criminal behaviour. Indeed, in some case…

GDPR allows you to stall people for at least a month, which is hardly "real time", and also to not disclose information which would affect the privacy of others.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#100

Post by black_puppydog » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:21 PM UTC

hycaria wrote: post #39

black_puppydog wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing this behind her back, and without recourse, refusing to talk about it to the person in question, basically the whole way this happened, does not shine a good light on the advisors here. Plus, you may have noticed, she wrote under a non-identifiable name (outside maybe people already in the know) and didn't name the people in question, nor the institutions. So yeah, she's pissed, IMHO rightfully so, especially s…

So personal recommandations should be disclosed ? That kinda goes against the point of trying to have an open discussion about a potential appliant. And what would the recourse be anyways ? What good would a talk do, since admittedly it's a person and not a work problem ? Do any good come out of people explaining how they despise your attitude, especially with high stakes, where no response will ever bring closure ?…

Well, then your response could be summed up as "there's really nothing to do here." In which case, since the lab holds all the other cards, and shows no sign of changing course, the only valid recourse would be for the candidate to make this issue as visible as possible to all potential employers, including names and everything. Assuming that there is no consensus to be reached between her and the lab, let the other parties come to a conclusion after learning both sides. After all, not saying anything about this to a potential employer, knowing what they will hear from the lab, would be kind of self-defeating in the literal sense, no?