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Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down

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Re: Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down

#71

Why do some many people hate Tesla and want them to fail? Do they also want SpaceX to fail? Elon can be an asshat sometimes, and he oversells and is over-optimistic. But even if the short sellers are right and Tesla will go bankrupt (which, btw, does not equal failure in many ways), why are so many people excited about that? Most tech giants of recent times have done things I would consider to have made the world a m…

For me it's because they do damage their workers' rights and their fans are so insufferable: The denial that they have quality issues, the repeated lies ("we are going to build a factory in weeks", while everyone knows that it will take years), the massive overvaluation. It's either you are on team Tesla and celebrating every of Elon's brainfarts or you are "big oil" that is trying to destroy them: Just look what hap…

>they are now selling Fiat their CO2 certificates thus enabling them to do wonderful green washing.

SO they should not use the cash that the government made accessible to them (because Fiat refuse to manufacture electric vehicles) and thus, not increase their EV production capacity?

This makes no sense. That's up to regulators to prevent Fiat from selling polluting cars, not to Tesla to refuse financial help that allow them to accelerate their growth.

Re: Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a potential fallicy here. Tesla should be compared to other car companies and not software companies. Because Tesla is building cars.

really though how many car companies have OTA updates

They all will. Volkswagen is doing it for its electric cars. But that level of connectivity is not necessarily a good thing:

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/29120/top-ota-expert-shows-how...

Re: Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down

#73

Why do some many people hate Tesla and want them to fail? Do they also want SpaceX to fail? Elon can be an asshat sometimes, and he oversells and is over-optimistic. But even if the short sellers are right and Tesla will go bankrupt (which, btw, does not equal failure in many ways), why are so many people excited about that? Most tech giants of recent times have done things I would consider to have made the world a m…

>Why do some many people hate Tesla and want them to fail? Do they also want SpaceX to fail?

For me personally the treatment of their workers, their anti-unionisation efforts, and their misleading advertisement of the autopilot, together with Musks extremely off-putting public behaviour. And no I don't want spaceX to fail.

>Why not save your hate for companies damaging democracy or workers rights, which seem like more serious charges?

I think many people, including myself at this point have similar opinions about Facebook et al. There are relatively few large tech companies left that I look at optimistically.

Re: Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about comparisons is you need to compare like to like as much as possible. Demographics are an essential part of actuarial statistics. I think the best comparison is between Tesla and luxury vehicles, and here is an article showing Teslas are much more dangerous: https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r... I'm not sure if you noticed (I didn't the first time I saw that document), but the…

the author is a tesla short and proud of it . Now the matter of data he sites its his blog which has no published paper or peer review. He quotes IIHS stats but says that they dont have enough data on Tesla ?? and he extrapolates tesla accident rates with correlation with news articles ?? and claims all death rates are not reported cause there may be data entry issues not realizing that it goes both ways?? . Being Sh…

Valid criticism of the source. And exactly the reason why I personally find Tesla, and SpaceX, so annoying. You just can't seem to get reliable unbiased data beyond Tesla's SEC fillings. It is either pro-Musk or anti-Musk to a degree where all neutral analysis are just drowned out. And that sucks, especially since Musk and Tesla ans SpaceX are intentionally fueling that cycle. Which in itself is somewhat worrying.

Re: Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about comparisons is you need to compare like to like as much as possible. Demographics are an essential part of actuarial statistics. I think the best comparison is between Tesla and luxury vehicles, and here is an article showing Teslas are much more dangerous: https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r... I'm not sure if you noticed (I didn't the first time I saw that document), but the…

The demographic point is true, but it really invalidates the whole thing, because you have to be assuming that the same people who buy a Tesla would have otherwise bought a Mercedes S class and not e.g. a Corvette or Porsche. If the Telsa owners skew younger or have other demographic differences from ordinary luxury car purchasers then the comparison is meaningless without factoring that in because you're measuring t…

The comparison between Tesla and other luxury cars isn't that far of. It is even the one Tesla is using, or was using, to show success compared to high priced Mercedes, Audi, Porsche and BMW models.

One thing I find annoying is that Tesla and Musk seem to always move the goal post to point where it suits them best. For me stuff like self-driving taxis and sattelite internet are prime examples. It looks, at least to me, like running away from rwality faster than it can catch up.

One last point regarding luxury cars and safety. Tesla is proud of being the top performer at the NCAP crash test. And all of a sudden that comparison is unfair just because the numbers aren't positive for Tesla?

Re: Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down

#76

Why do some many people hate Tesla and want them to fail? Do they also want SpaceX to fail? Elon can be an asshat sometimes, and he oversells and is over-optimistic. But even if the short sellers are right and Tesla will go bankrupt (which, btw, does not equal failure in many ways), why are so many people excited about that? Most tech giants of recent times have done things I would consider to have made the world a m…

For my part, it's just that Elon is the paramount example of what happens when the ROI plummets, and there's an amazing amount of investor cash floating around.

You see it in history: the victorians built a ridiculously over-engineered, insanely extensive rail network. It didn't make any money, but at the time, there wasn't really anything else to invest in with a reasonable return rate. So everybody went in on the one thing that had the possibility of a massive pay-off. Recognize the unicorn-logic here?

Tesla kind of takes all the decades of Toyota kicking ass, and gets the lesson completely wrong - the 'machine that builds the machine' is exactly what GM was doing. Toyota was good at building cars because they were far less automated than their american competitors.

Then it works because electric cars are a great idea, batteries are massively subsidized by the phone industry, and incumbent car makers don't really have relevant expertise (since they're really good at building internal combustion engines, and a lot of the other stuff is a secondary concern). Also, because Tesla has an enormous amount of investor cash.

So why does all this bother me? It's because of where the cash comes from. Tech companies don't really pay taxes, and they don't have (relative to revenue) employees. If you imagine how many jobs Microsoft Office has replaced, you get the picture. All this is fine in itself (minus the tax thing), but when the money just gets poured into these obvious money spouts, into a company that's pretty obviously only workable because it sits at the bottom of one of those money spouts, lead by a guy who's clearly not as smart as he thinks he is - well, it feels a bit like a great example of the waste and unfairness of the system itself.

Re: Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down

#77

Why do some many people hate Tesla and want them to fail? Do they also want SpaceX to fail? Elon can be an asshat sometimes, and he oversells and is over-optimistic. But even if the short sellers are right and Tesla will go bankrupt (which, btw, does not equal failure in many ways), why are so many people excited about that? Most tech giants of recent times have done things I would consider to have made the world a m…

Of the top of my head, these are a few things that if Tesla can get away with while having a huge fanbase and no repercussions, every future startup is going to try:

1) Tesla Had 3 Times as Many OSHA Violations as the 10 Largest US Plants Combined[1]

2) Elon Musk personally doxxing a market analyst who provided in-depth analysis of Tesla financials, by calling his boss and threatening to sue if he continued his side project of covering Tesla [2]

3) Committing blatant securities fraud by claiming he would sell Tesla to Saudi Arabian investors for $420 a share, and promising 'the short burn of the century' a few weeks before doing so.

4) Bailing out a failing Solar City run by Musk's family(cousins) with Tesla shareholder money on the promise of a product that turned out to be vaporware. [3] After the merger solar city sales are now approaching zero and it's becoming increasingly clear it was a bailout [4]. Multiple lawsuits are ongoing.

5) Claiming that Tesla cars bought today will appreciate in value to over $250,000, so it's actually an investment not a purchase.[5]. Generally making crazy statements about imminent "million robotaxis" while still not having a 'Summon' featured promised in a few weeks months ago because "parking lots are very hard"(recent tweet)

For me at least, the transition was a slow one - from "What they're doing is hard, but I hope they succeed" to "They're probably going to fail, but at least they have good intentions" to "If they don't fail, the precedent set is staggering to what you can get away with".

There's the famous James Comey saying of 'The Chickenshit Club' - prosecutors unwilling to take on corporations for fear that a loss or long case would damage their win ratio, leading to entities with a large legal team getting away with anything they want. Fundamentally the problem is consistently making statement that they know to be untrue under the guise of this being targets to be met. A generous person would of course call them "ambitious goal". But someone who has studied them closely would know it's an attempt to pump stock that has historically worked, but has recently started failing.

When blatant market manipulations, hazardous working conditions, highly questionable accounting practices, false marketing claims, doxxing critics and lies are allowed to succeed, laws don't really exist and companies operate within their bounds only because they don't want to take the 0.1% risk that they'll actually be punished in a way that threatens their continued operations.

If you believe in capitalism and regulated efficient markets, you will hope that a company that breaks the rules as often as Tesla doesn't go unpunished. But the SEC will never bring down a company who's stock is still high, as their primary goal is to protect shareholder value. To fully uncover the extent of their damage, they will have to fail first.

[1] - https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-man...

[2] - https://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-allegedly-silenc...

[3] - https://mansionengineer.com/2018/08/10/elon-musk-tesla-and-t...

[4] - https://i.imgur.com/iQUJkbE.jpg

[5] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-16/musk-stan...

Re: Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down

#78

Why do some many people hate Tesla and want them to fail? Do they also want SpaceX to fail? Elon can be an asshat sometimes, and he oversells and is over-optimistic. But even if the short sellers are right and Tesla will go bankrupt (which, btw, does not equal failure in many ways), why are so many people excited about that? Most tech giants of recent times have done things I would consider to have made the world a m…

For me it's mostly that I don't like overly-promotional liars. And the "saving the world" schtick wears thin. Hate would be a strong word though.

Re: Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down

#79
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest it really disturbs why people hate Tesla so much. Citing your reason for them being over-optimistic or over-promising, how else do people change the world? I don't mean this message as an attack but something to think about. These guys are working on something No one has EVER done in the history of mankind and we require them to stick to timetables and if they don't the punishment is we wish them failure…

All that is great. I just wish they could do it without lying through their teeth. Elon is still claiming with a straight face that fully autonomous, L5 Teslas are coming next year. This is a lie. Everyone knows it is a lie. Why is this necessary? Couldn't he change the world without engaging in that sort of behavior?

Elon blatantly lies through his teeth on many occasions.

Somewhere around 2013, he claimed Tesla would launch a "fully autonomous, L5" in 2 years, but it would take another 3 years of regulatory approval. Clearly a gross misrepresentation of facts.

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