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Quantum Darwinism, an Idea to Explain Objective Reality, Passes First Tests

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Quantum Darwinism, an Idea to Explain Objective Reality, Passes First Tests

#21
post #13
post #8

Here's a rebuttal from a physicist https://motls.blogspot.com/2019/07/quanta-magazines-anti-qua...

The rebuttal takes a view which is close to my heart—but [Motl] puts it so viciously, dismisses without genuine inquiry or curiosity the intriguing claims of the article, and plays so much faster and looser with his ideas than the author he critiques—you can taste his contrition. Ball and [Motl] are probably both mistaken about what QD actually explains. Edit: fixed names

For future reference, "Luboš Motl" and "puts it so viciously, dismisses without genuine inquiry or curiosity [....], and plays so much faster and looser with his ideas than the author he critiques—you can taste his contrition" are pretty much synonymous. The man's a troll with a PhD.

Re: Quantum Darwinism, an Idea to Explain Objective Reality, Passes First Tests

#22
post #8

Here's a rebuttal from a physicist https://motls.blogspot.com/2019/07/quanta-magazines-anti-qua...

This rebuttal is very weak. It’s attacking straw men, not really addressing the original article at all.

For example, Motl objects to Ball’s The world we’re living in sure doesn’t feel quantum mechanical by quoting himself(!): some people keep on saying that it "looks like" there must be a classical mechanism beneath the quantum phenomena.

That’s a ludicrous misreading of the article. Ball isn’t claiming that nature is somehow secretly classical, he’s saying it is quantum but looks classical in everyday life. Ball is in fact making the same claim as Motl himself, if only Motl could see it.

Or for another example, Motl objects to Ball’s How do quantum probabilities coalesce into the sharp focus of the classical world? and insists that they do not in fact coalesce: Statements about big objects' properties may "look" certain because quantum mechanics may predict probabilities to be 99.9999% or higher [...] But quantum mechanics never allows the certainty to go to 100%

Again, Motl is in violent agreement with Ball! The whole thrust of the article is that wave function collapse is not a special process outside of known quantum mechanics, doesn’t depend on consciousness, and doesn’t require an observer. It’s a statistical process where the probability of seeing a singular, classical-like state will tend towards 1 as a system interacts with its environment and decoheres.

And there are plenty more such examples. It seems like Motl in fact agrees with the article, but objects to... the tone for some reason?

Or maybe he just thinks it’s trivial? If so, I don’t think that’s fair at all, as wave function collapse really is widely depicted as highly mysterious, in pop science circles at least.

Re: Quantum Darwinism, an Idea to Explain Objective Reality, Passes First Tests

#24

As a layman I just can't get past the glaring reality of: we simply do not possess the means (i.e. equipment/tools) to examine/measure/control the fundamental elements of matter without utterly affecting the outcome in ways we are not able to control, understand or accurately predict. I don't believe there is any amount of quantum theories that will get us past this fundamental boundary.

It can be made to work in at least some cases -- for example, QED is a theory about how individual photons and electrons behave that’s in truly fantastic agreement with experimental results.

There’s a deep philosophical question about whether we can every truly learn the real fundamental laws of nature, sure; but it certainly looks like we can get very very close, perhaps arbitrarily close.

Re: Quantum Darwinism, an Idea to Explain Objective Reality, Passes First Tests

#26
post #13
post #8

Here's a rebuttal from a physicist https://motls.blogspot.com/2019/07/quanta-magazines-anti-qua...

The rebuttal takes a view which is close to my heart—but [Motl] puts it so viciously, dismisses without genuine inquiry or curiosity the intriguing claims of the article, and plays so much faster and looser with his ideas than the author he critiques—you can taste his contrition. Ball and [Motl] are probably both mistaken about what QD actually explains. Edit: fixed names

Could you explain your view in a calmer and clearer way than Motl? I’m curious whether there’s any “there” there, so to speak.

QD as described in Ball’s article sounds very sensible to me, and Motl’s objections sound like he misunderstands the article and would actually mostly agree with QD.

Re: Quantum Darwinism, an Idea to Explain Objective Reality, Passes First Tests

#27

I can tell when I don't truly understand something by my ability to disagree, or make counter arguments. In this case it sounds reasonable -- that the probability distributions of the quantum scale somehow cohere because of a Darwinian mechanism. But if you told me, oh, actually the center of mass of the probability distributions is perceived as the real location, that makes sense too.

I know it’s just an off the cuff example, but that one seems easy to argue against -- in the double slit experiment, the particle is perceived to go through both slits, not through the middle.

Re: Quantum Darwinism, an Idea to Explain Objective Reality, Passes First Tests

#28

I was quoted in this piece, and adapted some of my correspondence with the author into a blog post: http://blog.jessriedel.com/2019/07/24/faq-about-experimental...

Are the actual papers available online? On arxiv.org?

Re: Quantum Darwinism, an Idea to Explain Objective Reality, Passes First Tests

#30
post #28

I was quoted in this piece, and adapted some of my correspondence with the author into a blog post: http://blog.jessriedel.com/2019/07/24/faq-about-experimental...

Are the actual papers available online? On arxiv.org?

Yes, they are linked from the blog post. The experimental papers are arXiv numbers 1803.01913, 1808.07388, and 1809.10456. The basic theoretical papers are available from the Wikipedia page on quantum Darwinism, also linked.
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