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Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#51

Post by mywittyname »

vikramkr wrote: post #3

Its interesting- at first blush I would think that the internet would slow down language evolution by linking together communities in a way that prevents that natural genetic drift of languages between nearby towns with limited intertown travel from happening. Instead, the constraints and form of the medium has created an explosion in linguistic evolution and growth. What an exciting linguistic time to be alive!

Homogeneity is an important component for change, because changes need to be adopted by a critical mass of people before they can be considered part of the language. The homogeneity of the internet helps speed the process of change along tremendously.

Some Instagram celebrity could make up a word, and by the end of the week, 100 million people could start using it. No author from 100 years ago had that kind of reach or influence.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#52

Post by yojex »

malvosenior wrote: post #50
yojex wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this might seem weird, but there are many people who do not at all feel that way. I can't even begin to imagine what feels condescending about someone using "so" as a filler word. For people with a bit of social anxiety, it can serve as an easy and comfortable lead-in to share a thought when they can't think of a better way.

I think if you read your reply with and without the “so”, you’ll see what I mean. Your second paragraph is probably one of the reasons people do it but it’s also the reason it come off passive aggressive, which when disagreeing with someone sounds condescending.

I included it in my reply to see what you thought of it :)

I hadn't considered it in the context of disagreement; I think I can see how that could rub people the wrong way.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#53

Post by ohduran »

jhanschoo wrote: post #33
ohduran wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair point, although I think that writing has been with us for so long that we can no longer say that it's something we haven't adapted our language to. Think of it this way: when you think in terms of defining a word, don't you picture how it's written down? That is probably a different mindset from the one people who can't read are in. Plus, many times orthography has to do with how the word has evolved fr…

> when you think in terms of defining a word, don't you picture how it's written down? Not really, actually. To illustrate, if someone asked me what "diarrhea" means, I would answer quickly that it's having a stomachache and runny shits, and it would be an adequate definition, even though I would have to take a moment to figure out its spelling and even then I won't be certain.

I stand corrected, that's good counterexample.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#54

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

orthoxerox wrote: post #41
frenchy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word is "pidgin", and don't think this is really a good example of that. These language features are being used by native english speakers to communicate with other native english speakers. A pidgin is not normally used to communicate between speakers of the same language. Note that some languages that are collquially refered to as pidgins, aren't (e.g. Tok Pisin).

I think Tok Pisin is referred to as a pidgin quite officially. That's what Pisin in its name is.

Tok Pisin is classified as a creole, not a pidgin. While its origins go back to a pidgin, hence the name, it is no longer a pidgin.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#55

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

coldtea wrote: post #34
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

orthography is not a deep part of language. language has been around much longer than writing systems. it's like what font you use for writing code. it doesn't affect the syntax or semantics of the language. which isn't to say that orthography (or fonts) aren't interesting.

> orthography is not a deep part of language. language has been around much longer than writing systems. And that era was a primitive, oral tradition, era. Just because something emerged later doesn't mean it's not as deep, or even more important, than what was there previously. Else gestures and groans would be even "deeper" than language (they are with us for hundreds of thousands of years before language). Also ma…

So you don't speak anymore?

It's not just because orthography emerged later, but because it's entirely parasitic upon actual language. It's simply a representation, so the font metaphor is entirely appropriate. The representation can be changed in arbitrary ways that don't really affect the underlying structure.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#56

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

ohduran wrote: post #28
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

orthography is not a deep part of language. language has been around much longer than writing systems. it's like what font you use for writing code. it doesn't affect the syntax or semantics of the language. which isn't to say that orthography (or fonts) aren't interesting.

That's a fair point, although I think that writing has been with us for so long that we can no longer say that it's something we haven't adapted our language to. Think of it this way: when you think in terms of defining a word, don't you picture how it's written down? That is probably a different mindset from the one people who can't read are in. Plus, many times orthography has to do with how the word has evolved fr…

Orthography doesn't affect underlying structure of language. It's a meta-representation layer. Again, this doesn't mean it isn't interesting, but I'm not going going to say "Oooh, people are writing sentence in English which don't start with capital languages, what an exciting language change." Because it's an orthographic change, and not a language change.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#57

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

coldtea wrote: post #32
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #13

Separating actual language from things like orthography is important here. I'm not sure language itself has changed at a significantly different rate than in the past. Internet communication environments do favour changing orthographic norms, which is still interesting, but not the same thing as language change.

> I'm not sure language itself has changed at a significantly different rate than in the past. Internet communication environments do favour changing orthographic norms, which is still interesting, but not the same thing as language change. Orthography is just the spelling part of the language. But there's a lot of change to the vocabulary because of internet (new term adoption and foreign word travel are now much fa…

> But there's a lot of change to the vocabulary because of internet (new term adoption and foreign word travel are now much faster).

Do you have a source for this?

> There are also several new syntactic forms (e.g. in memes etc) that might still appear "out of the language" for the more conservative, but are inevitable destined to become part of it as the generations grown with them mature (and they are already all over even "traditional" print media, books, etc. -- even bizarro forms like "doge speak").

So there are new styles which appear which impose additional constraints upon language (e.g. doge speak). Such things have arisen at previous points in time (different poetry styles).

Again, I'm not saying that the things you point to aren't interesting or aren't worthy of study. But I think calling them 'language change' is a mislabelling.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#58

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #40
coldtea wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> orthography is not a deep part of language. language has been around much longer than writing systems. And that era was a primitive, oral tradition, era. Just because something emerged later doesn't mean it's not as deep, or even more important, than what was there previously. Else gestures and groans would be even "deeper" than language (they are with us for hundreds of thousands of years before language). Also ma…

also, when talking about modern communication, as the TFA says, it's all written. Text is king, people don't talk on the phone any more, we text each other. I think I type at least as many words as I speak every day, and on some reclusive days, many, many more. And because people infer emotional content from subtle cues in text, orthography is important now.

> also, when talking about modern communication, as the TFA says, it's all written.

You don't talk to anyone?

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#59

Post by kazinator »

devchix wrote: post #44

Oddly enough, Lane Greene of The Economist 6 days ago argued that language by and large has not changed so fast, despite the Internet, citing the same book. The Intelligence podcast 2019-07-17, near the 14:08 mark. https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYWNhc3QuY2... I have not read the book, I'm surprised it (or maybe just its title) is involved in making two opposing cases.

There are online forces that prevent language change. It's easier now than ever to have access to the language produced by vast numbers of ordinary people and to police it.

It's also easier now than ever to self-correct. For instance you can use a search engine to find the proper term for anything imaginable, so there is no need to introduce unnecessary words. (Most people who introduce new words do so because their vocabulary and access to material is lacking, not because they have invented or discovering something as of yet unnamed by anyone.)

People participating in online forums are now more keenly aware than ever of their own dialect, because they have ready access to large numbers of people from other regions. I think this will have the effect of globalizing language, through the expunging of unnecessary words in local dialects.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#60

Post by marcus_holmes »

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #58
marcus_holmes wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

also, when talking about modern communication, as the TFA says, it's all written. Text is king, people don't talk on the phone any more, we text each other. I think I type at least as many words as I speak every day, and on some reclusive days, many, many more. And because people infer emotional content from subtle cues in text, orthography is important now.

> also, when talking about modern communication, as the TFA says, it's all written. You don't talk to anyone?

I have been known to text my girlfriend when she's sitting next to me. She does the same.
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