I've been using Robinhood for the past year, and I hope they add basic features such as: - The ability to short a stock, which I still can't believe isn't available. - Price Alerts Everything else is gravy, IMO, especially if they keep the same basic, sleek interface, which I actually like.
Robinhood raises $323M at a $7.6B valuation
51–60 of 130 posts
Re: Robinhood raises $323M at a $7.6B valuation
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
The other commenters answered your first question about the sale of flow to HFT firms. Regarding your second question, I wouldn't recommend trading a lot of size on Robinhood, or using market order in general, but brokerages that charge commissions do not necessarily offer better execution than Robinhood, many of them still route your flow to an HFT firm or have less than stellar order routing systems.
Execution price is governed by SEC and clients must get the best price. HFT doesn’t really work on retail investors who’s sells and buys can be covered with one order. You can’t front run one order trades. Institutional investors are the prey for most HFTs since they do large stock trades and they need to hide to prevent front running.
There was a post on Reddit just a month ago where a small investment club did just that. https://imgur.com/gallery/qMBAzoQ
Re: Robinhood raises $323M at a $7.6B valuation
#53I'm curious if anyone with knowledge can speak to how Robinhood sells data to high frequency traders? This seems to result in a large percentage of their revenue which of course makes sense due to not having commission revenue. I've also heard some people argue if you're investing a decent amount, you're better off with commissions over market orders on Robinhood. The arguments were the above & that orders can take a…
I'll add Matt Levine's insightful take here [0], which delves a bit into the "deal for order flow" controversy, and also makes the unique claim that for Robinhood to engage in this is very much in line with "taking from the rich and giving to the poor", because it does guarantee price improvement for RH users. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-10-16/carl-i...
Retail generates uncorrelated order flows, perfect for the market maker.
Institutional generates highly correlated order flows, the nightmare of the market maker.
As paradoxical as it may sound this can actually result in price improvement for the retail trader.
This is one of those rare places in finance where being small is an advantage. Another is in finding value opportunities - the smaller you are the larger the pool of potential opportunities. Warren Buffett needs big and good opportunities. Retail investor needs just good opportunities. The word "big" restricts choices.
Re: Robinhood raises $323M at a $7.6B valuation
#54Re: Robinhood raises $323M at a $7.6B valuation
#55Re: Robinhood raises $323M at a $7.6B valuation
#56I'm curious if anyone with knowledge can speak to how Robinhood sells data to high frequency traders? This seems to result in a large percentage of their revenue which of course makes sense due to not having commission revenue. I've also heard some people argue if you're investing a decent amount, you're better off with commissions over market orders on Robinhood. The arguments were the above & that orders can take a…
If you are curious where the average broker routes orders to, they all file Rule 606 documents with the SEC.
Here is Robinhoods for Q1 2019: https://d2ue93q3u507c2.cloudfront.net/assets/robinhood/legal...
These filings show exactly how much each HFT, aka market maker, got routed by robinhood.
Here is Schwabs: https://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/nn/legal_compliance/imp...
What you will notice is that both have roughly similar distribution across execution venues, and the same can be said about many retail brokerage firms (Fidelity, Etrade, and the like). The difference is that Robinhood makes quite a bit more money from Payment for Order Flow than the typical brokerage.
Back in 2016 when Robinhood was gaining traction, I was pretty suspicious that they were either directly front-running their own users, or they were selling order flow to HFT's. Back in that day, both of the founders still had a LinkedIn that showed that they both worked at an HFT! before starting Robinhood. Since then they have removed that history from their profiles, but it's definitely not a good look if you are saying you are commission free! Selling order flow is the norm in the industry, but there is certainly a special relationship between Robinhood and their execution venues that isn't completely clear.
Overall, I am in the boat that Robinhood should at least be required to say that they aren't perfectly commission free. It seems that the commission most users pay is just indirectly being paid to an HFT, then kicked back to Robinhood.
With all of that being said, unless you are making huge block (100's of shares) trades, it's probably still cheaper to use Robinhood than a retail firm.
My hypothesis is that Robinhood gets higher kick backs because:
1) The user base is typically not financially savvy.
2) Users are more likely to do "market" orders leading to more profit for HFT's
3) Since there is no commission fee, users feel like they can buy or sell with 0 friction meaning the average user will end up in and out of positions much more frequently.
All of those things mean more profit margins for HFT's to kick back to Robinhood.
Robinhood certainly is "free", but the issue is that without friction, e.g. $10 trade fee, you as an investor will hop in and out of positions quickly, meaning more profit for the HFT, and indirectly, Robinhood. However, for most of us Robinhood is still cheaper than a brokerage even with this hidden tax.
I recommend avoiding options, penny stocks, and cheap-per-share stocks if you want to avoid paying a higher hidden tax to HFT's.
Re: Robinhood raises $323M at a $7.6B valuation
#57I'm curious if anyone with knowledge can speak to how Robinhood sells data to high frequency traders? This seems to result in a large percentage of their revenue which of course makes sense due to not having commission revenue. I've also heard some people argue if you're investing a decent amount, you're better off with commissions over market orders on Robinhood. The arguments were the above & that orders can take a…
Re: Robinhood raises $323M at a $7.6B valuation
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's everyone's right to shoot themselves in the foot with dumb financial decisions. The industry regulations would indicate otherwise. Generally, the “dumber” the money, the more regulatory protections that will apply. At their core, financial regulators are consumer protection entities.
Nothing is stopping anyone from putting their life savings into a legal dumb investment. Regulators and the government sure won't stop you from liquidating your 401k early. At some point common sense comes into play and you need to be smart with your money.
Re: Robinhood raises $323M at a $7.6B valuation
#59This is great! Now I wish they would open up trading for IRAs
Robinhood encourages getting in and out of positions to frequently.
Re: Robinhood raises $323M at a $7.6B valuation
#60I'm curious if anyone with knowledge can speak to how Robinhood sells data to high frequency traders? This seems to result in a large percentage of their revenue which of course makes sense due to not having commission revenue. I've also heard some people argue if you're investing a decent amount, you're better off with commissions over market orders on Robinhood. The arguments were the above & that orders can take a…
The only issue I have had with Robinhood is regarding tax planning, because they only support FIFO sell orders. There have been several instances where I would have preferred to sell shares purchased more recently, so that my older shares can pass the one year threshold for long term capital gains. The ability to specify lots when selling shares would be worth money to me.