Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch • Hacker News Board

Re: Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch

#41

Post by spraak » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 4:57 AM UTC

weddpros wrote: post #32

spraak wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that you're missing the point. We aren't getting obese on the carb diet. We are getting obese from excess calories and dietary fat. De novo lipogenesis (producing fat from only carbs) is inefficient and uncommon. Storing carbs as body fat via de novo lipogenesis is inefficient; storing dietary fat in body fat reserves is easy and efficient.

storing dietary fat works best when you eat carbs, because then your body will run on carbs and carbs will spike your insuline to signal the body to store the fat. Also the insuline spikes and drops make you crave more carbs...

That sounds like a very keto perspective. Meat can "spike" insulin, too.

> "In fact meat protein causes as much insulin release as pure sugar." and "Some of the protein-rich foods (beef, cheese, eggs) had larger insulin responses per gram than did many of the foods consisting predominately of carbohydrate." and "A low-fat diet based on less-refined, carbohydrate-rich foods with relatively low insulin scores may help enhance satiety and aid weight loss as well as improve blood glucose and lipid control" [1]

If you're not eating excess calories and are limiting fat intake, you won't get fat.

[1] http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf

Re: Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch

#42

Post by teslabox » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 5:10 AM UTC

dilap wrote: post #21

spraak wrote: post #2

> This may suggest that our lineage has evolved specific adaptations to digest starch-rich foods, underlining the long and continuing importance of these staples in our diet This reminds me of the interest in keto dieting and the frustrating misunderstanding that carbs are the cause of excess weight, diabetes etc. If that were true, the whole world would be diabetic and obese, since everywhere has a staple carb. It's…

Undoubtedly multi-factorial, but excessive omega-6 fats as a major driver is the most convincing theory I've heard. Interesting reading: https://www.breaknutrition.com/omega-6-fatty-acids-alternati...

Your link references the street lamp joke - love that one, referenced it in a comment yesterday.

My understanding is the omega-3 oils are problematic for humans too, they’re just not as acutely toxic as the omega-6 oils. I started avoiding seed oils in college. It was not the specific intervention I needed, but I believe avoiding this anti-food has helped keep me from deteriorating like people commonly do...

Re: Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch

#43

Post by chrisco255 » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 6:19 AM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #30

arcticbull wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that mean we've evolved to eat a lot of starch so the more natural thing for humans to eat is therefore starch, if you follow this line of reasoning? And therefore, we've "evolved beyond" the keto diet? FWIW, I do not think this is good reasoning.

OP is not making a claim here, he is pointing out counter evidence to someone else's claim, which is that keto diets are optimal for homo sapiens because that is what our genetic ancestors evolved to eat. The presence of significantly more genes for amylase provides strong (although far from conclusive) evidence that homo sapiens have evolved to eat a much more varied diet than paleo proponents assert.

Paleo diet mainly prohibits wheat and refined carbs but allows for specific starches such as sweet potatoes. It's different than keto. At any rate, the existence of enzymes does not indicate that starches should make up a large portion of one's diet either, as we must admit the past century of relative plenty in the Western world has led to all sorts of dietary diseases.

Re: Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch

#44

Post by chrisco255 » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 6:23 AM UTC

spraak wrote: post #2

> This may suggest that our lineage has evolved specific adaptations to digest starch-rich foods, underlining the long and continuing importance of these staples in our diet This reminds me of the interest in keto dieting and the frustrating misunderstanding that carbs are the cause of excess weight, diabetes etc. If that were true, the whole world would be diabetic and obese, since everywhere has a staple carb. It's…

The number of carbs your body can tolerate without being converted and stored as fat is highly variable and may come down to specific genetic factors that are largely inherited from one's racial makeup. There's no doubt that carbs and sugars make a higher percentage of our diets than historical, traditional diets.

Re: Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch

#45

Post by teroszsegv » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 6:28 AM UTC

spraak wrote: post #41

weddpros wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

storing dietary fat works best when you eat carbs, because then your body will run on carbs and carbs will spike your insuline to signal the body to store the fat. Also the insuline spikes and drops make you crave more carbs...

That sounds like a very keto perspective. Meat can "spike" insulin, too. > "In fact meat protein causes as much insulin release as pure sugar." and "Some of the protein-rich foods (beef, cheese, eggs) had larger insulin responses per gram than did many of the foods consisting predominately of carbohydrate." and "A low-fat diet based on less-refined, carbohydrate-rich foods with relatively low insulin scores may help…

"The results of this study are preliminary but we hope they stimulate discussion and further research. Additional studies are needed to determine whether the IS concept is useful, reproducible around the world, predictable in a mixed-meal context, and cliii ically useful in the treatment of diabetes mellitus, hyperlipidemia, and overweight"

Interesting but ultimately a flawed concept.

Since i was born and for 45 years i was eating a typical mediterranean diet (i live in these parts) very high in complex carbs and fibers from legumes, whole grain breads, beans. what exactly did that to my health? Gradualy from my early teens years i become overweight and later on obese, my cholesterol levels skyrocket and from the age of 20 i became pre-diabetic

Since i started a low carb diet 3 years ago (48 yo now) not only i lost all that extra weght, but i'm no longer pre diabetic and the cholesterol levels went down to normal levels. most importantly, i feel and i'm as healthy as i've never felt in my whole life so far. and all this by eating mostly meat, fish, eggs, full fat dairy and a bit of vegetables/fruits

I know very well what these 45 years of eating low-fat high complex carbs actualy did to my health and how much i suffered all these years, and i'm not intend to return back to these eating habits, Ever!

Re: Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch

#46

Post by chrisco255 » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 6:28 AM UTC

twic wrote: post #27

BurningFrog wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until recently, everyone has lived near the border of starvation, and not had an opportunity to get obese. Since the agricultural revolution, carbs are what we have been able to mass produce, and therefore breed ourselves to greater numbers on. That it probably hasn't been the ideal diet for us is a distant secondary concern. Now that we're finally overproducing food, we actually are getting obese on the carb diet. C…

I think the Venus of Willendorf and her equally thicc cousins are, if you'll excuse the expression, ample proof that some people had an opportunity to get obese long before the agricultural revolution.

The Venus is a fictional character. In the same era you would see statues of men with phalluses as big as their bodies. Obesity was probably rare before the agricultural revolution.

Re: Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch

#47

Post by chrisco255 » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 6:39 AM UTC

ianai wrote: post #36

cageface wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These arguments are all interesting but I think most relevant is that the best nutrition science we have to date shows that a proper plant based diet is optimal for health & longevity. The plants and animals we eat now are radically different than the ones we were exposed to through most of our evolution so paleo proponents are chasing a lost world.

Actually, the representation of the ancestral diet being primarily meat is incorrect - outside of a few examples where there just weren’t many plants available. Largely, humans ate what they happened upon. Meat was a scarce byproduct of another predators meal. Ie we ate what the big cats left behind. Furthermore, the ultra refined and concentrated foods we now eat didn’t exist until very recently. The amount of sugar…

Humans evolved during the ice age. There were no vegetables in large enough quantities to feed the human brain's massive growth over the past million years. Every single paleolithic cave art depicts animals and hunting techniques. Fossil evidence from millions of years ago show bone scrapes on zebra and reindeer bones in human caves. We evolved to hunt wooly mammoths twice the size of elephants for goodness sake. We decimated whole populations of megafauna. You would have to go back 4-6 million years ago to find scavenger ancestors.

Re: Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch

#48

Post by chrisco255 » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 6:57 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #34

mrob wrote: post #33

The argument for keto/carnivorous diet does not depend on human adaptation to digesting starches. I understood it as: * Evolution works at the level of genes, not individuals. It will select for short-term reproductive success at the expense of longevity or quality of life. * All living things evolve to avoid being eaten (at least while they have the potential to reproduce or aid the reproduction of their kin). * Ani…

These arguments are all interesting but I think most relevant is that the best nutrition science we have to date shows that a proper plant based diet is optimal for health & longevity. The plants and animals we eat now are radically different than the ones we were exposed to through most of our evolution so paleo proponents are chasing a lost world.

There is no such clinical evidence. For example, the Sami of North Scandinavia have a 40% lower cancer rate than Swedish people do (who are pretty healthy by Western standards), despite getting the bulk of their calories from reindeer meat.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19186763/

The modern cow is not fundamentally different from the ancient Aurochs, or reindeer or bison that used to be consumed in large quantities. Sure cows have been selectively bred for docile behavior and varying amounts of lean and fattyness but genetically speaking they're extremely similar. Meat doesn't vary a great deal (which is why a lot of things taste like chicken).

Re: Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch

#49

Post by cageface » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 7:39 AM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #48

cageface wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These arguments are all interesting but I think most relevant is that the best nutrition science we have to date shows that a proper plant based diet is optimal for health & longevity. The plants and animals we eat now are radically different than the ones we were exposed to through most of our evolution so paleo proponents are chasing a lost world.

There is no such clinical evidence. For example, the Sami of North Scandinavia have a 40% lower cancer rate than Swedish people do (who are pretty healthy by Western standards), despite getting the bulk of their calories from reindeer meat. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19186763/ The modern cow is not fundamentally different from the ancient Aurochs, or reindeer or bison that used to be consumed in large quan…

Diet has relatively little influence on cancer. Diseases much more closely correlated with diet like diabetes and atherosclerosis are most effectively prevented with a plant based diet. Tribes like Inuit and Masai that eat mostly wild meats show advanced atherosclerosis at early ages and suffer from short lifespans.

Of course if you're eating supermarket meat then your diet is nothing like any kind of ancestral hunter.

Re: Animals living alongside humans produce amylase, enzyme that breaks down starch

#50

Post by julius_set » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 7:41 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #12

Although I follow a ketogenic diet and benefit from it I have laughed about the claims that it's somehow aligned with the needs of Paleolithic people. SO I really enjoyed this: "Unlike Neanderthals and Denisovans, who had only two diploid copies, we carry up to 20 copies of the AMY1 gene, which produces salivary amylase. "

Is it too much of a reach to make a claim that due to our high starch diet compared to other hominid species our brains developed at a faster rate due to our brains consuming a higher yield of the energy stored in polysaccharides.

Therefore isn’t it imperative for a majority of paleo and keto oriented diet people to consume complex polysaccharides for their brains to perform optimally? *with the exception of people who must follow it for serious health reasons