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H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

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Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#191

Post by booblik »

noworld wrote: post #188
booblik wrote: post #187

As someone on work visa myself it is very clear to me that I have the visa to do a specific job at a specific company. I know I may have to leave at anytime. I also know that there is a path to GC, but it is a bonus and not a certainty. Any intelligent person should understand that. Now I am not from India or China, but it still takes years to get a GC. And yes in those years I may like it here very much and start bu…

How is it broken? EDIT: Just wanted to add that I am an American and I would prefer that employers had to raise wages and offer increased benefits to attract domestic workers rather than have the option to import low-wage workers from other countries.

BTW I think that QA has zero justifications for an H1B visa.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#192

Post by unimployed »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #184
unimployed wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to add an additional layer of economic nuance here, beyond Econ 101 and BA Econ. While it is true that an economy is not necessarily a fixed “lump of labour”, you also need to take into consideration many more factors before making another blanket statement about how labour and an economy works. There are localized crowding effects that take place at all levels of labour (bottom to the top), and various…

> The trend you see is that every year, tech grows by ONLY the number of visas they are granted. That very strongly suggests that there's a shortage of tech workers in the United States. What's the unemployment rate for CS majors? [1] > From the data, which theory of the labour market do you think best describes the history of the tech sector in the USA? The data appears to describe a tech sector that cannot find eno…

I believe your interpretation is being disingenuous with the data and everything known about how H1Bs are utilized.

You seem to gloss over the fact that tech jobs don’t actually require everyone to hold a specific CS degree (in reality and practice few do if you have the skills). So once you expand your definition of skilled workers to include everyone that could adequately fill such positions, you are looking at a much larger pool of workers than just fresh CS grads. You definitely don’t need a CS degree to be a low level analyst, tester, etc. which has been a pretty popular H1B position. From the linked article, you likely also have adequate coding skills if you come from an engineering, scientific, STEM, or similar background. Then add people from bootcamps that came from outside STEM.

You also ignore that H1Bs are frequently used to replace citizens, their poor working conditions, and lower salaries. You seem to apply to another perpetual myth in economics that companies like to spout about labour shortages and skilled labour shortages. There are few if any economic studies that conclude there are actual widespread shortages of candidates with necessary skills. What you seem to ascribe to is a shortage of workers that are willing to be taken advantage of, work for lower wages, and work in poor conditions.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#193

Post by whenanother »

duxup wrote: post #28

I'd really just like to see some sort of minimum pay that is relatively high so that is these are roles that are something the company feels strong enough to shell out the money. $120k? Something like that?

you have to be clear about whether this is the payment to a contracting firm or the payment to the contractor or if it is the “salary” that a typical employee from a company takes home. lots of numbers are thrown around without any clarifications for the intent of misleading people. also it must be emphasized that people outside the us typically rely on their home country’s universal healthcare so they will always will be able to undercut any us worker.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#194

Post by whenanother »

tracker1 wrote: post #125

How about defining specialty job as paying at least 8x minimum wage, or in the top 25% of paid employees of a company whichever is higher?

all pay discussions must be qualified with details to whether it is a payment to a contracting company or the contractor or an actual salary with benefits. most foreigners will read your comment and think you are talking about contract payments while us citizens think you are talking about a salary with health and other benefits.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#195

Post by whenanother »

yazan94 wrote: post #29

TL;DR: The student was denied an H1B for a QA Tester role, which requires a BS in a computer-related field. The argument was that this qualifies as a specialty occupation. The judge rightfully told her to pound sand. @privateSFacct has a good point - there are plenty of international students that get their masters degree here in America and they should definitely be getting better treatment. I really don't think tha…

masters overseas are the equivalent of a bachelor here.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#196

Post by whenanother »

conanbatt wrote: post #91

Im amazed at the level of protectionism expressed in this thread, in this community. I will make an argument for the cynics that believe they should be protected from competition: that immigration restrictions and caps like the H1B curtail the freedom of Americans to buy services from who they want to. American people that run American businesses are prohibited from hiring people they believe to be best suited for th…

corporations are allowed to exist because the provide jobs to it’s citizens. h1b visa abuse is literally going against the whole purpose of their existence.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#197

Post by HBKXNCUO »

conanbatt wrote: post #189
HBKXNCUO wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and one whose bags of money has given him a vastly disproportionate say over the actions of the government. You can call it extortion if you want, I guess. Provided it's in the interests of the American citizen to restrict access to the US labor market, I don't see why they should care what you call it. If you think it's not in their interest, I'd be interested to hear your argument. On the other hand, if you wa…

You would be hard pressed to find economic evidence that immigration has negative results to an economy. It is always better to allow immigration for economic prosperity and the entire science of economics has validated this theoretically and pragmatically since 1776. Moreover, the importation of labor happens every day every single time you use any manufacture or service produced outside, from software like Google/F…

It's certainly true that immigration has a positive effect on GDP, at least in the short term, and in the long term depending on other circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's in the interest of everyone or even most people in the country. We are not paid as a percentage of GDP. It doesn't help me out too much that goods and services are slightly cheaper or more plentiful, or that the stock market goes up, if my wages are depressed to a larger degree. You admit that wage depression happens to workers in fields where foreign labor is allowed to participate ("Americans overpay software, doctors, lawyers, and many other professions because they are unwilling to allow free labor movement from those professions."), so it is only a matter of which outpaces the other. It seems pretty clear that for low and medium skilled workers in the US, it has not been a good deal, at least for the past few decades.

And that is only to speak of their short term interests. It is almost certainly not in the long term interests of the majority of the people in a country to import large numbers of people who fail, for whatever reason, to fully assimilate into the country, especially if there is a democratic system of government, where identity politics can take hold and corrode the government in addition to the damage done to the social fabric.

>You could arguably increase the salaries of american citizens by banning by penalty of death any kind of importation

Is that what every country on earth with import restrictions and duties does? I had no idea. That seems a bit over the top. Can't they just make people pay money for bringing those things in, instead of killing them?

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#198

Post by conanbatt »

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #197
conanbatt wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would be hard pressed to find economic evidence that immigration has negative results to an economy. It is always better to allow immigration for economic prosperity and the entire science of economics has validated this theoretically and pragmatically since 1776. Moreover, the importation of labor happens every day every single time you use any manufacture or service produced outside, from software like Google/F…

It's certainly true that immigration has a positive effect on GDP, at least in the short term, and in the long term depending on other circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's in the interest of everyone or even most people in the country. We are not paid as a percentage of GDP. It doesn't help me out too much that goods and services are slightly cheaper or more plentiful, or that the stock market goes u…

> It doesn't help me out too much that goods and services are slightly cheaper or more plentiful, or that the stock market goes up, if my wages are depressed to a larger degree. You admit that wage depression happens to workers in fields where foreign labor is allowed to participate ("Americans overpay software, doctors, lawyers, and many other professions because they are unwilling to allow free labor movement from those professions."), so it is only a matter of which outpaces the other. It seems pretty clear that for low and medium skilled workers in the US, it has not been a good deal, at least for the past few decades.

It reduces rent-seeking but it increases the value-wages of everyone else. It is true that if you are to personally hold a monopoly for all the software engineering possible to be consumed in the US your wages would go through the moon, and if that monopoly were broken your wages would go down. But the negative effects of that monopoly are evident: less software products would be made, meaning the entire society takes a hit.

A system where every single profession is monopolized would inevitably lead to misery, not to the increase of wages of everyone.

It is also surprising to see people that work with the internet to advocate ideas that would be seen as insane if applied to the internet itself.

> Is that what every country on earth with import restrictions and duties does? I had no idea.

It used to ->

> By the 8th of Elizabeth, chap. 3, the exporter of sheep, lambs, or rams, was for the first offence, to forfeit all his goods for ever, to suffer a year's imprisonment, and then to have his left hand cut off in a market town, upon a market day, to be there nailed up; and for the second offence, to be adjudged a felon, and to suffer death accordingly. Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations.

Adam smith buried mercantilism under the argument that it was better for everyone to free trade, not to the brutality of the measures. The benefits of Free trade are not up to debate in the economics field. Again, do you think you would be richer if the iphone or computer you use to post here were had to be made in the US as opposed to china, and it cost 2, 5, or even 10x as some Apple officials have claimed it would have cost?

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#199

Post by HBKXNCUO »

paxys wrote: post #24
wharnal wrote: post #14

> Sagarwala, according to the ruling in Washington, D.C. U.S. District Court, received an H-1B visa in 2012, but those visas are tied to specific employers. So when she sought to change jobs in August last year, the prospective new employer, outsourcing firm HSK Technologies, had to go through the visa application process again. So she had lived in the US for six years and still had to beg the government for permissi…

I have been here 12 years, and know people 15-18+ years, all in the same boat. I can be asked to leave the country tomorrow because I tried to switch jobs, my boss woke up on the wrong side of the bed or literally any or no other reason.

The program does not exist for your benefit. It exists for the benefit of US companies, and allegedly by extension the citizens of the US. The extent to which it benefits you is incidental, so that sort of thing is to be expected.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#200

Post by copperx »

pandaman wrote: post #183
copperx wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's true. But what I meant was that if you're in the US, you need to have a dual-intent visa.

This is also incorrect. You can adjust into immigration status from any legal status in general, there might be different complications depending on status (e.g. you might not be able to leave and re-enter the country in some or you need to follow 30/60/90 rule with others) but there is no requirement to be in a dual intent status for AOS. If worse comes to worst you can always do consular processing and only leave t…

You are completely right and I now realize that I worded my comment poorly. You are right in that you don't have to have a dual intent visa to apply, but take my case as an example. I'm in the US on a non-immigrant work visa, but I haven't applied for EB2-NIW because I know that if I get denied, then I would have proved intention to immigrate and getting another non-immigrant visa will be close to impossible.

I wouldn't have that problem if I was on, say, an H1B Visa.

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