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H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

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Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#21

Post by koolba »

yholio wrote: post #10
privateSFacct wrote: post #4

Ugh, these cases give H1B's a bad name. I do wish there was crackdown on crap like this. Where I work the H1B applicants (who don't get selected) have masters, from a US university, for a degree that applies specifically to their job. These folks should be on the red carpet to US citizenship. They have checked every box. Instead they get treated like crap. They should SHUT DOWN these other players who clog up the pro…

There should be only one parameter that governs the eligibility to specialist visas: the ability to earn a high wage. Companies should bid directly with the salary, and the top X offers get a Visa; the candidate is free to change jobs but is required to maintain within that wage band for the duration of the visa, outside exceptional situations. Any other mechanism affords the opportunity for arbitrage, bureaucracy, l…

What's awesome about this approach is that it naturally leads to max revenue for the government as well.

The only counter I've heard to it is that Joe's Tech Corp in Podunk, USA cannot compete with big city salaries and would never be able to get any filled. Though I see that as a feature not a bug.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#22

Post by throwaway082729 »

jimbob45 wrote: post #13

It's tough to convince America that you need to import immigrants because there isn't a single American that can possibly fill the job. Some candidate (cough) is going to bring that up in the next election and I'm not sure I've seen a legitimate argument against it that isn't a generalization.

You mean single, unemployed, qualified American who really wants that job. There are probably thousands of Americans that can take up that job but don't want to because they don't want to move or like their current job or don't like that company, etc.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#23

Post by paxys »

ineedasername wrote: post #18
privateSFacct wrote: post #4

Ugh, these cases give H1B's a bad name. I do wish there was crackdown on crap like this. Where I work the H1B applicants (who don't get selected) have masters, from a US university, for a degree that applies specifically to their job. These folks should be on the red carpet to US citizenship. They have checked every box. Instead they get treated like crap. They should SHUT DOWN these other players who clog up the pro…

But are there US citizens or permanent residents who are interested in the jobs your H1B's are vying for? It is a tight labor market, so it's possible there aren't many other candidates, depending on the job. However I recently saw an opening where I work go to an H1B where there were other qualified candidates, which I don't like to see. I would rather see the H1B's have a more stable/easier path to permanent reside…

It isn't about interest, but who is best for the job. That's the point of classifying a specialty occupation. Candidates aren't interchangeable. A PhD grad from India with a specialized degree could add a TON of more value to the business and economy than a US citizen, so why not hire them?

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#24

Post by paxys »

wharnal wrote: post #14

> Sagarwala, according to the ruling in Washington, D.C. U.S. District Court, received an H-1B visa in 2012, but those visas are tied to specific employers. So when she sought to change jobs in August last year, the prospective new employer, outsourcing firm HSK Technologies, had to go through the visa application process again. So she had lived in the US for six years and still had to beg the government for permissi…

I have been here 12 years, and know people 15-18+ years, all in the same boat. I can be asked to leave the country tomorrow because I tried to switch jobs, my boss woke up on the wrong side of the bed or literally any or no other reason.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#25

Post by m0zg »

wharnal wrote: post #14

> Sagarwala, according to the ruling in Washington, D.C. U.S. District Court, received an H-1B visa in 2012, but those visas are tied to specific employers. So when she sought to change jobs in August last year, the prospective new employer, outsourcing firm HSK Technologies, had to go through the visa application process again. So she had lived in the US for six years and still had to beg the government for permissi…

You only have to do that if your new job is significantly different than your existing one. You do have to notify the government (USCIS probably) that you're changing jobs, bu that's not "visa application process again" if your new job is similar, and you're unlikely to be denied.

Job changes are very dangerous for H1-Bs in other ways and employers know it (and abuse it, nearly all of them). Basically if your employer finds out you're looking for a job and you don't already have another job lined up, they can fire you out of spite, and you'll have to GTFO the US within (IIRC) 2 weeks. There's absolutely no recourse. Even if you are in a protected class, you're very unlikely to sue unless you're in the US and have lots of money (which H1-Bs typically don't). So few people bother unless the situation is really dire.

It's not just H1-B either. F1-OPT gets abused in a similar fashion.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#26

Post by opportune »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #5
privateSFacct wrote: post #4

Ugh, these cases give H1B's a bad name. I do wish there was crackdown on crap like this. Where I work the H1B applicants (who don't get selected) have masters, from a US university, for a degree that applies specifically to their job. These folks should be on the red carpet to US citizenship. They have checked every box. Instead they get treated like crap. They should SHUT DOWN these other players who clog up the pro…

The simple solution is to give every h1b worker a temporary green card or somehow allow them free mobility of work within the United states. Being allowed to move jobs at will, vs being beholden to the hiring companies for sponsorship, will quickly kill these body shops and also let us know if tech firms really are being honest about a shortage of skilled engineers.

I think that you would still want some restrictions like they have to work in the same industry for at least e.g. 80% of the total comp of their first job in the US until they get a real green card. Otherwise there are different abuse patterns that could happen.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#27

Post by damnyou »

privateSFacct wrote: post #4

Ugh, these cases give H1B's a bad name. I do wish there was crackdown on crap like this. Where I work the H1B applicants (who don't get selected) have masters, from a US university, for a degree that applies specifically to their job. These folks should be on the red carpet to US citizenship. They have checked every box. Instead they get treated like crap. They should SHUT DOWN these other players who clog up the pro…

You're not a huge fan of mass immigration if you're not a huge fan of mediocre immigrants.

I'm not just saying this to be facetious. There's a huge pressure on members of any marginalized group (women, immigrants, LGBTQ) to either be extraordinary or not matter at all. You have to make space for the people that aren't extraordinary.

I'm speaking as someone from a marginalized group. I've dealt with this pressure myself.

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#29

Post by yazan94 »

TL;DR: The student was denied an H1B for a QA Tester role, which requires a BS in a computer-related field. The argument was that this qualifies as a specialty occupation. The judge rightfully told her to pound sand.

@privateSFacct has a good point - there are plenty of international students that get their masters degree here in America and they should definitely be getting better treatment. I really don't think that there are any actual jobs that require nothing more than a BS degree and can be honestly considered for an H1B unless we dilute the definition to mean anything that any occupation that requires a a 4 year degree (but at that rate, isn't everything a specialty occupation?).

But there is probably a more systematic problem here - it doesn't seem that Americans want to get masters/phd degrees as much as international students do. In 2015: over half of the engineering masters degrees from US universities were earned by international students [1]. Same issue with PhD degrees [2]. Funny thing is, the average American student scores higher than students from other highly regarded countries, so it isn't some sort of skill gap[3]. Anecdotally, I know many people who refuse to get a MS because they feel that they will end up doing the same job for possibly slightly more pay. A lot of posts on programming subreddits also echo this sentiment (though there definitely isn't a consensus) - the opportunity cost for delaying your entry to the workforce by a couple years to get a masters often does not outweigh the salary and experience you would have otherwise earned in those 2 years [4][5][6]. I'm sure one can find posts where sentiment is generally one way or the other, I just liked the first 3 I found.

[1] https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2017/10/11/foreign...

[2] https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2015/8/189841-understanding-t...

[3] https://www.pnas.org/content/116/14/6732

[4] https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/8vse...

[5] https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/7ade5r/h...

[6] https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/7yrvwe/w...

Re: H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

#30

Post by opportune »

nerdponx wrote: post #17
ergothus wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a baseline, I'm in favor of a lot of immigration and think people have way too many hoops to jump through in general, but the H1B crowd in particular is a group that matches even what most of those opposed to mass immigration claim to desire in immigrants. That said, i've noticed different "worlds" of H1B worlds, with different impacts upon other workers. I did a govt job on the US East Coast (Richmond, VA) that h…

I don't even understand the point of H-1B being tied to a specific employer or job title.

It's to prevent a bait-and-switch on behalf of the employee and situations where a person is "employed" by a company only so they can immigrate and then do something else, on behalf of the employer.

We can easily let people switch job titles and employers while addressing potential loopholes though.

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