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Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#261

Post by anigbrowl »

mdorazio wrote: post #49
enlyth wrote: post #15

I agree with the worker in the video, they should be treated as human beings. One of the issues is doing a simple, monotonous task every 8 seconds, 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, without creating anything of value, is going to be dehumanizing and unfulfilling regardless. Robots carrying out this work would probably be for the best for everyone involved, although Amazon should do right by the workers carrying them ove…

> The compensation should reflect the mental and physical stress they put people through. As with all companies paying workers to do a job, the compensation should reflect the confluence of supply and demand in the market. The fact that Amazon can easily hire as many workers as it wants at $15/hr says that they are paying their employees plenty already. It bothers me that people are constantly demonizing Amazon for t…

As with all companies paying workers to do a job, the compensation should reflect the confluence of supply and demand in the market.

I do not agree that market efficiency should have priority over all other considerations. It seems to me this idea simply reflects the views of those who derive a net benefit from markets, and are oblivious (by accident or choice) to the costs of market failure or impossibility of clearance.

Look, supply and demand only work under conditions of perfect competition, which include total knowledge of the market by all participants and no costs for entry or exit. Such conditions obviously do not obtain in many, perhaps most real world contexts. A slavish obedience to these laws is therefore a losing strategy, and indeed in the real world most people take a strategic approach.

People who take a strategic approach for themselves while insisting on the supremacy of supply and demand to others (who may or may not be aware of the dichotomy and subsequently credulous of the assertion) are engaged in an act of deception.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#262

Post by JudgeWapner »

dgzl wrote: post #113
JudgeWapner wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . It bothers me that people are constantly demonizing Amazon for Why does it bother you when people empathize with the poor and castigate billion dollar corporations that don't even allow employees enough time to urinate without it harming the employees metrics making them slip towards the back of the rank and closer to being fired? That bothers you ...think about that.

You entirely missed their point and instead put words in their mouth.

Pissing in a bottle between stock aisles is a "market condition". The market rewards those participants who do not have interrupted labor due to bladder events.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#263

Post by [deleted] »

friendlybus wrote: post #256
beecat wrote: post #254

If I think about it, I feel pretty dehumanized myself each time I click through a clumsy AWS GUI for a set of shoddy services that my company pays 60k a month for the privilege of running our operations and storing our business intelligence on the computers of the one entity that has not only the financial muscle but also the lack of moral scrupples to use that intelligence to enter our market and outcompete us. Juss…

Glad someone finally said it. What's stopping these data collecting companies from cornering a huge amount of markets?

[deleted]

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#264

Post by akudha »

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #244
newhaus1994 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you say “you can’t blame Amazon, they’re just paying market wages” what you’re saying is “profit is the only thing that could possibly matter.” You put your finger on the thing that bothers me most about the free-market critique of labor conditions. They all hand-wave away the responsibility that corporations have as entities run by (presumably) empathetic humans. Amazon does not have to automate away jobs ins…

>Amazon does not have to automate away jobs instead of giving workers fairer conditions and wages. I'm Amazons competitor, I automate away the jobs and pay the lowest wages possible. Now my goods are cheaper than Amazons and you buy from me instead.

True, but I bet there would be at least a small percentage of people who would still not buy from you because you don't treat your workers well. Most people would still shop with you, as their own wages are crap and they are looking for cheapest places to shop. But if they were paid well, they will at least consider shopping with ethically sound companies.

It is like a circle - lower wages lead to lower purchasing power, so companies pay their workers low to lower prices to sell to low earning customers, and so on...

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#265

Post by wutbrodo »

qwsxyh wrote: post #133
rstupek wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't a joke it was a statement of the reality of the situation which is that the labor performed by the people striking will likely be moved to automation, eliminating the job entirely.

I'm not a complete idiot like you're making me out to be. There is clearly a joking intonation there.

I think the idea is that other people disagree with the characterization as "clearly having a joking intonation".

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#266

Post by mikeash »

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #244
newhaus1994 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you say “you can’t blame Amazon, they’re just paying market wages” what you’re saying is “profit is the only thing that could possibly matter.” You put your finger on the thing that bothers me most about the free-market critique of labor conditions. They all hand-wave away the responsibility that corporations have as entities run by (presumably) empathetic humans. Amazon does not have to automate away jobs ins…

>Amazon does not have to automate away jobs instead of giving workers fairer conditions and wages. I'm Amazons competitor, I automate away the jobs and pay the lowest wages possible. Now my goods are cheaper than Amazons and you buy from me instead.

Why don’t you do that now? Amazon takes in billions in profit, meaning that their prices are substantially higher than they could be. Why aren’t you (or some other competitor) taking advantage of this?

It’s funny how this sort of argument never comes up in the context of taking profits.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#267

Post by jcims »

mikeash wrote: post #197
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that workers in this position are getting squeezed by opposing forces. On the top you have automation. They have jobs because they cost less than robots. But every wage increase or company benefit or break that reduces worker productivity is a step closer to cost parity with automation, and therefore the unemployment line. On the other side, they can move away from that line by accepting lower pay or w…

It’s more like blaming the local power company for local energy prices. Nobody is blaming Amazon for wages worldwide. They’re blaming Amazon for the wages of their own workers. And why not? “The market” isn’t a magic answer here. The market provides a floor on wages, not a ceiling. If Amazon pays below market wages, they won’t get enough workers. If Amazon pays above market wages, nothing bad happens aside from reduc…

Paying someone materially above market value creates a precarious situation for the employee in which they are operating with an income they can’t hope to replace if the employer leaves. It happened where I live with an auto assembly plant. There are deleterious effects on the local job market as well, in which lical companies can’t pay enough to compete.

All told it’s probably better to put the money in the hands of an employee, but there are certainly negative consequences that can arise.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#268

Post by mikeash »

harryh wrote: post #233
mikeash wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. If Amazon pays their workers better, that won’t fix the millions of other workers stuck with bad pay and abusive jobs. But that doesn’t mean we should ignore the individual companies. Certainly, our energies should be focused on bigger societal changes. But it’s not misplaced ore to also mention the fact that some companies could already do better, and choose not to.

I completely agree. If Amazon pays their workers better, that won’t fix the millions of other workers stuck with bad pay and abusive jobs. That's not what I meant by "more efficient." If every company employing low skilled labor suddenly raised pay above market wages it might help all those workers. But it would mean that prices for things produced by unskilled laborers were artificially high and prices produced by h…

I don’t understand, how is that different from taxing and giving workers money that way? They should have the same effect in terms of economic efficiency. The only reason we use taxes for this sort of thing is because it’s harder to cheat.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#269

Post by rayiner »

mikeash wrote: post #197
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that workers in this position are getting squeezed by opposing forces. On the top you have automation. They have jobs because they cost less than robots. But every wage increase or company benefit or break that reduces worker productivity is a step closer to cost parity with automation, and therefore the unemployment line. On the other side, they can move away from that line by accepting lower pay or w…

It’s more like blaming the local power company for local energy prices. Nobody is blaming Amazon for wages worldwide. They’re blaming Amazon for the wages of their own workers. And why not? “The market” isn’t a magic answer here. The market provides a floor on wages, not a ceiling. If Amazon pays below market wages, they won’t get enough workers. If Amazon pays above market wages, nothing bad happens aside from reduc…

That analysis is wrong because it ignores two facts (1) Retail is a highly competitive, low margin business; and (2) Economic systems are dynamic, not static. Amazon’s profit margins are in low single digit percent. If Amazon pays above market wages and keeps prices the same, that creates an opportunity for Wal-Mart to come in and lower prices by using lower cost labor. Customers will go to Wal-Mart instead, because the Internet and things like Google Shopping make it trivial for consumers to chase marginal savings. As a result, Amazon’s workers are out of a job.

Note, by the way, that the minimum wage in our competitor countries (France, Germany, UK) is about $11.50 per hour adjusted for cost of living. That’s much lower than what Amazon is laying.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#270

Post by harryh »

mikeash wrote: post #266
fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Amazon does not have to automate away jobs instead of giving workers fairer conditions and wages. I'm Amazons competitor, I automate away the jobs and pay the lowest wages possible. Now my goods are cheaper than Amazons and you buy from me instead.

Why don’t you do that now? Amazon takes in billions in profit, meaning that their prices are substantially higher than they could be. Why aren’t you (or some other competitor) taking advantage of this? It’s funny how this sort of argument never comes up in the context of taking profits.

Competitors do take advantage of this! There is vicious price competition for most of the kinds of goods that amazon ships from its warehouses. This competition has pushed profit margins into the single digits (probably low single digits). There's really not any room for prices to fall further with given technology.

Retail is BRUTALLY competitive.

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