Why did we wait so long for the bicycle? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#271

Post by runarberg » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 12:16 AM UTC

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #241

runarberg wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not entirely correct. If you are a farmer you (or a someone working with you) still need to travel for numerous reasons, including to bring your products to market, to round up your animals, to buy equipment and supplies, etc. You say they had horses for those types of traveling, except they most likely didn’t. Only a successful farmer could afford a horse. And even if they had a horse, chances were it was bu…

“...including to bring your products to market, to round up your animals, to buy equipment and supplies, etc.” No... Farmers didn’t bring their products to market unless they were running a plantation, ie they were very large operators, which were few and far between and would certainly nit having been riding a bicycle - those guys would be going in a nice two horse cart. The small guys sold to a local buyer who hand…

We might both be guilty of over generalizing. Farming practices differ very widely across cultures and time. Farming in post colonial America was often done on big areas of land that was often handed out for free (or very cheap) and the markets were far away. This is in contrast to farming where land was scarce and small and a the markets relatively close (2 hours walking).

In the latter case bringing a freshly slaughtered goat, a couple of basket worth of grain, or textiles, to town three days a week, and sell in a public market is not uncommon. In the former case it is unthinkable.

In the case of rounding up animals I can see bicycle being quite useful if you have a small stock that you grace in large swaths of shared uninhabited lands. At the start of the gracing season you might not use the bicycle, but during the gracing season you might need to move them from one area to another, then it is definitely handy to be able to bike to the first area, herd them to the next one, walk back, and bike home.

Note that neither of my examples were ever common in post colonial America, but quite common throughout Europe and are still common in sub Saharan Africa.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#272

Post by kolme » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 12:27 AM UTC

davesmith1983 wrote: post #57

simulate wrote: post #44

In 100 years will we wonder why recumbent bicycles took so long to catch on? MIT's David Gordon Wilson, the writer of the excellent book Bicycling Science, had been advocating for recumbents as a more efficient design to replace traditional modern bicycles for decades. http://news.mit.edu/2017/mit-designer-inventor-author-bike-b... and https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/bicycling-science-third-editi...

I've ridden many different types of bicycle from fixed gears, single speed mountain bikes and more traditional mountain bikes and racing bikes. Recumbent is horrible to ride in traffic (you are below the height of most traffic) and the handling is atrocious. Yes they are maybe more efficient but they are not pleasant to ride. TBH the current design is efficient enough, is well understood both in terms of the technolo…

> Shimano's hub gears need regular maintenance where traditional derailleur setup will go on for thousands of miles with only basic maintenance.

I think you got that bit wrong: you have to clean and change parts more often with derailleur systems (the teeth for example erode much quicker). Insurances for hub systems bikes are cheaper because of this reason, at least where I am in Germany.

Not a bike expert but I happen to have a hub-geared bike with an insurance and I was told that by the insurance guy.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#273

Post by Iv » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 12:31 AM UTC

entee wrote: post #108

Animats wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. And one point that cannot be stressed enough. Good steel, in quantity, only goes back to 1880. Lots of things that "could have been built in antiquity" foundered on that basic fact. Before Bessemer, steel was as exotic as titanium is now. The alternatives are not good. Cast iron? Too heavy and too brittle. Wrought iron? Maybe, but not that great. Lead? Too soft. Brass? Could work, but expensive. A king's kid m…

I often wonder as I am building/fixing something (often my bicycle as it happens) and I happen to toss an extra screw in the trash how miraculous a simple screw of this type would have been to a middle-ages craftsman. The precision of keeping all those threads perfectly spaced is one thing, but the technology to make them in such volume at these sizes (often quite tiny), and in volumes so as to make them essentially…

There was a very interesting discussion on One Hour One Life mailing list about how fast we would go from prehistoric tech to modern tech if we knew all the steps and one key point was that we would have to make several iterations of increasingly precise machinery.

I learned that in 1751, Vaucanson made this full-metal lathe: https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/metal-turning-lathe/... that was a kind of breakthrough and the ancestor of modern lathe, one of the first precision machine tool. Add that to his automata and his invention of punch cards to program looms and I am now realizing how much of a Da Vinci that guy was.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#274

Post by Robotbeat » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 12:32 AM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #232

lucideer wrote: post #26

> (Some commenters have suggested that it was not obvious that a two-wheeled vehicle would balance, but I find this unconvincing given how many other things people have learned to balance on, from dugout canoes to horses themselves.) I'll be one of those commenters I guess.... What!?? Balancing in a canoe is in no way similar to a bicycle. I can jump in a canoe having never been in one, and it will balance itself. I…

I read a biography of the Wright Brothers, which pointed out that they spent quite some time and effort with their gliders, learning how to fly. So they were already skilled pilots before they attempted powered flight. The book suggested that this idea occurred to none of the other airplane inventors. There might have been a similar problem with the bicycle: Anybody who built the first one had no idea of how to ride…

> The book suggested that this idea occurred to none of the other airplane inventors.

Gliders were pretty important for other airplane inventors of the era, as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aviation#Heavier_th...

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#275

Post by TomMckenny » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 12:38 AM UTC

>In light of this, I think the deepest explanation is in general economic and cultural factors.

Indeed, with enough people with enough spare wealth, you can have significant progress even when technology remains flat.

There is an immense difference between the Greek dark age and classical Athens, but not technologically. And intellectually curious people can figure out how to fly just using paper.[1]

Apparently, the first iteration of the bike in the early 1800s was a briefly popular toy: the very epitome of unguided discovery is play. Only later was it made practical by inventors working from that exiting idea.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgolfier_brothers

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#276

Post by GlenTheMachine » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 12:46 AM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #271

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“...including to bring your products to market, to round up your animals, to buy equipment and supplies, etc.” No... Farmers didn’t bring their products to market unless they were running a plantation, ie they were very large operators, which were few and far between and would certainly nit having been riding a bicycle - those guys would be going in a nice two horse cart. The small guys sold to a local buyer who hand…

We might both be guilty of over generalizing. Farming practices differ very widely across cultures and time. Farming in post colonial America was often done on big areas of land that was often handed out for free (or very cheap) and the markets were far away. This is in contrast to farming where land was scarce and small and a the markets relatively close (2 hours walking). In the latter case bringing a freshly slaug…

I fully concede that conditions were very different depending on time and place, and I was talking specifically about the US (mostly the eastern US, where I’m from) in the period after independence up to World War I.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#277

Post by alex_young » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 1:04 AM UTC

Excel_Wizard wrote: post #29

>Yet it was a simple mechanical invention As a mechanical engineer, this statement baffled me. All manufactured technology exists in the context of the manufacturing capabilities available to the designer. The manufacturing tech had to be tremendously complicated before a decent bike could be made. Hollow steel tubes aren't simple. Ball bearings aren't simple. There is a reductionist viewpoint among "theory" people t…

Wooden bikes seem like an obvious materials argument. Here's one I saw in a shop recently:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7mzTsrKgUgENoDkQ9

I suspect the answer is complexity. There are a bunch of inventions all together in a bicycle. From the frame to the spokes to the tires and headset, there is a lot of IP there.

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#278

Post by jasoncrawford » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 1:05 AM UTC

wahlrus wrote: post #97

I really enjoyed the markup/css styling on this piece. While the content is certainly up for debate, it was presented in a very visually clear and informative manner.

Thank you! I have actually spent a good amount of time getting the image layout just right

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#279

Post by nickbauman » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 1:05 AM UTC

atoav wrote: post #160

nickbauman wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Antikythera Mechanism was a completely exotic Roman artifact. It was the space shuttle of its time. Not really a fair comparison. Dually, Romans were known for their extensive roads system. My family home sites directly below the Ancient Roman frontier in Germany, where you can climb a mountain and still find a 10 foot wide stone road they built 2000 years ago mostly intact

I grew up close to old roman streets and even in it’s best times it is nothing that you would wanna ride on with any kind of bike.

Perhaps that's true recently, when you grew up, but not back then:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Aeclanum...

Re: Why did we wait so long for the bicycle?

#280

Post by nickbauman » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 1:07 AM UTC

entee wrote: post #99

nickbauman wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Antikythera Mechanism was a completely exotic Roman artifact. It was the space shuttle of its time. Not really a fair comparison. Dually, Romans were known for their extensive roads system. My family home sites directly below the Ancient Roman frontier in Germany, where you can climb a mountain and still find a 10 foot wide stone road they built 2000 years ago mostly intact

As any cyclist who has been on cobblestones can tell you, the pavers used on Roman roads aren't friendly to bikes. This would be doubly true without a pneumatic tire. Amazing engineering but not suitable for a bicycle.

The Roman pavers you would ride on today are 2000 years old, remember. Back then they were in much better shape, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads#/media/File:Pompei...