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Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#161

Post by deogeo »

jonknee wrote: post #89
deogeo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they will have jobs at other retailers, that will step in to take Amazon's market.

They'll be in for a rude awakening when they find out other fulfillment center jobs are just as hard and pay equal or less.

Other jobs are just as vulnerable to protests, strikes, and boycotts, so I don't see why they couldn't all be pressured to treat workers better.

By your logic, workers should never fight abuse, as they'll "just get another job that's just as hard". But the history of labor shows this to be false, and that collective action can achieve improvements.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#162

Post by capkutay »

icelancer wrote: post #152
capkutay wrote: post #144

Slightly unrelated but there is something weirdly consistent about how Amazon treats their workers and people who have to work with them. I remember just exhibiting an AWS conference was the most time-intensive grueling event I've ever worked in the tech industry. Obviously not as hard as a factory-working job, but they hold the only event in the industry that has you working from 7 am to 7 pm w/ no break if you want…

...aren't most exhibits/conferences like this? All my trade shows events are at least this grueling, and I no longer work in major IT.

I mean they practically can become that if you include the networking events and dinners but the listed hours in the exhibition hall usually are closer to 8 hours.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#163

Post by crankylinuxuser »

influx wrote: post #156
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you just raise the minimum wage. We arrived at this point because those with money use it to influence government to their exclusive benefit.

Amazon is paying above minimum wage already. What do you suggest they should be paid?

A different answer: Pay them when their labor is actually worth.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#164

Post by malandrew »

Someone1234 wrote: post #40
vorpalhex wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the fix to this is Amazon laying off all their workers?

As automation keeps on improving and productivity gets more centralized will there be a shortage of jobs? The above poster makes a fair point that this is work well suited to automation. In the broader sense with retail closing and Amazon taking market share, centralizing productivity (i.e. reducing retail jobs to fewer picker jobs), and then automating those fewer jobs away entirely, are we going to have a hole in s…

> are we going to have a hole in society where those jobs once existed?

This wouldn't be the first time. Happened with farming 100-150 years ago. It's going to be a painful adjustment, but until all human needs are met, I'm sure humans that still have jobs can come up with work they want performed in exchange for money so long as politicians don't legislate against the existence of those jobs.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#165

Post by CuriousSkeptic »

tryptophan wrote: post #100
EliRivers wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it reflect the confluence of supply and demand in the market? What's the axiom upon which you stand to say that is the correct way of things?

If wages are not set by a market, ie not supply and demand, they will be mispriced. Mice-pricing represents a loss of efficiency in the economy, and makes everyone worse off over time. If wages were set lower than equilibrium, obviously the workers would be lose out on this. If wages were set above equilibrium, the consumers would lose out due to the higher costs being transferred over to them. The market price repre…

The problem here is capitalism though. It has already distorted the market by extracting as much rent as possible from what ever inefficiency and externality it can find to make whatever equilibrium found far below anything a truly efficient market would determine.

Couple this with the misguided proposition that cost (market determined price) reflects value, and thus that fellow citizens right to food, shelter and safety should reflect their market determined labor price and you get this result.

Capitalism is a failed idea in it’s current incarnation, and does not deliver on the promise even of efficient markets.

Attacking Amazon to fix this, or enforcing minimum wages, isn’t more rational than taking pain killers to improve on the situation of hitting your head against a wall repeatedly. If we have nothing better to offer, by all means, but we should feel really ashamed that this is the best we have to offer.

We need something new, not that I know what, but it should be pretty obvious that what we have now fails to deliver.

I find the ideas of geo-liberalism somewhat inspiring, and I do think some synthesis is in order where market economies are leveraged for the beautiful resource allocators they are.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#166

Post by malandrew »

traderjane wrote: post #46
vorpalhex wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the fix to this is Amazon laying off all their workers?

Perhaps the state should be responsible for the roughness of economic transition, especially for work-affecting phenomena which is global? Such as through polishing the unemployment program.

That would be okay so long as any solution is temporary with clear criteria for sunsetting the government's involvement. Last thing we need is yet another agency that succumbs to the Shirky Principle and citizens become dependent on the government instead of taking up one of the new jobs that appear in the next few decades.

https://kk.org/thetechnium/the-shirky-prin/

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#167

Post by dang »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #65
mdorazio wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Because it's not an Amazon problem, it's a fulfillment center/warehouse employee problem that applies to just about every company in the industry I'm aware of. 2) Because Amazon is a for-profit company, not a charity, and its responsibility is not to pay employees more than it has to or give them more benefits/easier working conditions than are necessary. Are you also demonizing your own employer for not paying ev…

This is a fine plan if you're not the one suffering. Democracy takes time, and you can (and should) use leverage against corporations at the same time when necessary.

This is the point at which the thread swerves into unsubstantiveness and therefore flamewar. I realize it's not always predictable, but please take threads in the opposite direction.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#168

Post by dang »

barbecue_sauce wrote: post #82
matz1 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy takes time but I don't see any other way, as someone who are not the one suffering, I'm not going to boycott amazon. I like fast shipping and cheap item.

Yes, that is why you are being criticized: for not caring about other people.

Turning this into a personal attack is not ok. Would you please review the site guidelines and follow them when posting to HN? They include:

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

"Be kind."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#169

Post by zem »

mdorazio wrote: post #49
enlyth wrote: post #15

I agree with the worker in the video, they should be treated as human beings. One of the issues is doing a simple, monotonous task every 8 seconds, 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, without creating anything of value, is going to be dehumanizing and unfulfilling regardless. Robots carrying out this work would probably be for the best for everyone involved, although Amazon should do right by the workers carrying them ove…

> The compensation should reflect the mental and physical stress they put people through. As with all companies paying workers to do a job, the compensation should reflect the confluence of supply and demand in the market. The fact that Amazon can easily hire as many workers as it wants at $15/hr says that they are paying their employees plenty already. It bothers me that people are constantly demonizing Amazon for t…

> As with all companies paying workers to do a job, the compensation should reflect the confluence of supply and demand in the market.

nope, that's just using the fact that right now capital has more leverage than labour to pay your workers as little as you can get away with.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#170

Post by bobthepanda »

somethoughts wrote: post #153
bobthepanda wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor people generally don't live in suburban or exurban areas. And if they can't afford decent transportation then they will either face very long commutes or move and be stranded with whatever jobs are in the periphery exurban area.

Previously yes, since a high number of retail jobs (i.e. stacking shelves, sorting inventory, etc.) were all done in the core part of the urban area (i.e. think Target or BestBuy directly in the downtown area). With Amazon Fulfillment, the "retail-like" jobs (sorting inventory) can be done where the employee actually can relocate to the periphery and have a traffic free commute. And delivery drivers will be returning…

This results in several net negatives for workers though:

- Housing in exurban areas is not necessarily cheap. And moving has a nonzero cost. People may not be able to move to the exurbs in the first place.

- Downtown is where services are. Generally speaking, suburban support for low-income people is often lacking. And kids have to switch schools, people lose their existing community support networks, etc.

- Because downtown has so much employment, it's relatively easy to switch between jobs. Don't like your retail job? You can switch to another retailer, or a restaurant, or any other type of low income job. In these exurban areas, how much employer diversity is there? Is it easy to get to other employers?

This mostly seems like it would just create company slums.

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