China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home • Hacker News Board

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#101

Post by vkou » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 6:52 PM UTC

deogeo wrote: post #93

vkou wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of immigrants. If you think the extent of America's hostility against certain types of immigrants is limited to Dump Truck saying mean things on Twitter, I'm not sure what to tell you. [1] DT doesn't exist in a vaccum. There's a powerful, xenophobic political movement that has made him president, and there's a mainstream political party that wins more elections…

> There's a powerful, xenophobic political movement that has made him president, and there's a mainstream political party that wins more elections than it loses, that panders to that constituency. So very powerful, winning so many elections, yet they barely made a dent in even just legal immigration - it is still above 1 million per year, and the white population went from 85% in 1960, to 63% in 2010 [1] - a period d…

> That the country taking in the most immigrants, and so rapidly changing its demographics, gets labeled as the racist xenophobic one,

If you read the entirety of my post, you may notice that I did not label the United States as a xenophobic country.

I labeled a particular, but currently politically powerful subset of the population as a xenophobic one. If you doubt that it exists, you can find a good representation of it at your nearest MAGA rally.

If you have any immigrant friends, I recommend bringing them with you... And ask them what they think of what they'll see. They may find their eyes more persuasive than your assurances that everything is fine.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#102

Post by chvid » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 6:55 PM UTC

robbrit wrote: post #92

Does anybody know how hard it is for non-Chinese citizens to live and work in China? One of the competitive advantages of the US has been its ability to draw top talent from all over the world and not just its own citizens. Chinese citizens leaving the US is not a good thing, but it is just one nationality. If China manages to draw talent from everywhere, then the US has a real problem ahead of it. For example, my te…

As far as I can see it is quite easy. Though language and work culture may be a barrier.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#103

Post by president » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 6:56 PM UTC

Quality of life (e.g. security, stability, happiness) for the average citizen in the US seems to be on a downward trend. I imagine that is a big factor for foreign tech workers leaving the country. It's not all about money.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#104

Post by ronnier » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 6:56 PM UTC

Dig1t wrote: post #98

ronnier wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of this has to do with relationships? If I was Chinese man who came to America for school and was single, I'd move back to China too. Study after study shows that the dating game odds are not good for that particular demographic in the US.

Dating game odds are way worse in China actually, what with the massive shortage of women. https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/11/23/a-distor...

Maybe in general, but being educated in the US with good job prospects in China might change that.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#105

Post by commandlinefan » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

Causality1 wrote: post #13

We're quite far from the scale tipping in that direction, but it makes me curious about whether the US government has the legal authority to say "educating foreigners is no longer in the national interest, therefore it is no longer a valid reason to remain in the United States" and decimate the foreign student population essentially overnight.

When I studied computer science (for my Master's degree), I was one of three US citizens in the entire program. If the US gets rid of foreign students, it gets rid of upper-level CS, at least.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#106

Post by kec » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:04 PM UTC

newyankee wrote: post #82

programmertote wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see the trend in my coworkers at a big-four ad tech firm as well. At least a couple of them have gone home in the last six months (one of them had her H1B approved less than a year ago as well; and another one already is nearing her STEM OPT extension of 18 months). I came to the US in mid 2000 to study at a fairly well-known liberal arts college (with full scholarships). I worked at a start-up in SF after graduati…

The silver lining is may be at least you do not seem to be from India or China whose waiting period for GC is 70+ years for EB3 right now apparently

Every time I see someone talking about immigrating processing times, the number seems to go up...

Per the state departments August 2019 bulletin, the actual backlog to file for an EB-3 green card is currently 3 years for China, and 9 for India....

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#107

Post by boringg » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

AimForTheBushes wrote: post #36

Sure, Chinese nationals are returning home but who else is following? Living in China is about as attractive as being a character in 1984.

And only those who don't value personal freedom. (read Tiananmen square, Uighur camps as your starting examples). Sure the US loses out on some talent, but that will always happen and once we move past the current administration we will pick up talent from elsewhere if need be.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#108

Post by epicureanideal » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

devy wrote: post #12

otoburb wrote: post #3

"Wang Meng Qiu, a startup founder who graduated from Stanford University with a doctorate in computer science, held jobs at Facebook and Twitter in Silicon Valley before he moved to the outskirts of Shanghai to launch his own drone company, Zero Zero Robotics. Wang said the salaries of his 40-person team for two years cost $700,000." Generously assuming that the full 40-person team didn't onboard until year 2, that's…

> that's an annual average salary of only 17,500 USD per person. That is realistic and in line with fresh out of college Computer Science graduate market rate. I know that because I went to an undergraduate CS degree in China. Developers are working harder in China too. The famous 996 work schedule has been prevalent in Internet software startups in China.[1] Hence the anti-996 movement. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/…

Are they actually productive for 72 hours per week (9am-9pm 6 days per week) though? At some point wouldn't the burnout make them only as productive as someone working maybe 50 hours per week but with time to learn and relax?

But also, if 996 includes things like studying to become a better programmer, taking breaks to get coffee, etc. then maybe a lot of us on HN are working 996, if we include our own time we spend learning.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#109

Post by xmly » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

robbrit wrote: post #92

Does anybody know how hard it is for non-Chinese citizens to live and work in China? One of the competitive advantages of the US has been its ability to draw top talent from all over the world and not just its own citizens. Chinese citizens leaving the US is not a good thing, but it is just one nationality. If China manages to draw talent from everywhere, then the US has a real problem ahead of it. For example, my te…

You have money, then it becomes very easy

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#110

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #81

whoevercares wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working class Chinese family in many cities now could also afford a two year master program(e.g Stony Brook U only cost me about RMB 300k for the entire Master with a decent CS program). My family is just normal working class with yearly income about 100k RMB. It’s not quite accurate to attribute all masters to “Rich” because ordinary income has been flying in China

I mean, this speaks to the one child policy as well as the value put on education in Asia. From a western perspective having to spend 3x annual household income on a masters degree would be absurd.

China has a very high savings rate and often a dearth of investment opportunities for that money (a bubbly real estate market or a insider trading heavy stock market), education abroad can provide pretty good returns comparatively.