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China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

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Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#41

Post by asdfman123 »

jhedwards wrote: post #35
asdfman123 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No want wants to live in that kind of environment? In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of immigrants. In China, you can be jailed with no due process for speaking out about human rights abuses. Also, better hope you're not in a religious minority. Don't say anything bad about the government, because they're watching you!

When I was living in China this didn't bother most of the Han Chinese I met. Most of them were so concerned about lifting their families out of poverty and providing for their future that if you said to them "but you can't speak out about human rights abuses" they'd just look at you like "why the hell would I want to do that".

Maybe they don't talk about it because they know they are not allowed to talk about it.

I knew a Chinese exchange student who would debate all sorts of things, but when you brought up the Chinese government she would come to a hard stop and say "I don't talk about that."

It's probably smart if you're from an authoritarian country.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#42

Post by LastMuel »

educationdata wrote: post #30
wesleyfsmith wrote: post #9

The most concerning quote: "About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now go back — up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Ministry of Education. Some 15 percent take jobs in China’s booming tech sector." Attracting top global talent has always been a competitive advance for America, and it's not a good sign for our economy if we can't retain people that we are educating here.

This number does not mean much. In the old days, more Chinese students rely on full scholarship to study in the US. Now, more and more rich Chinese kids (mostly come with very poor academic background) can study in the US. So the overall number does not reflect "brain drain", because not all international students can be counted in "global talent". A more meaningful number should only count those graduated from good…

Wait, are you saying the only valuable students are the ones that didn’t pay for their education? Because that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#43

Post by Rch_East »

It doesn't make sense for America to educate its rivals. We should also be wary of Universities turning into backdoor immigration schemes - this has already happened in Australia and lead to a massive reduction in education quality.

The focus should be on training Americans to fill American jobs - and any immigration scheme should be arranged with military, economic, and cultural Allies only (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea).

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#44

Post by hello_moto »

asdfman123 wrote: post #22
liberte82 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to blame Chinese students for not wanting to stay when they're being met with outright hostile rhetoric from the political establishment. Economic considerations completely aside, no one wants to live and work in that kind of environment.

No want wants to live in that kind of environment? In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of immigrants. In China, you can be jailed with no due process for speaking out about human rights abuses. Also, better hope you're not in a religious minority. Don't say anything bad about the government, because they're watching you!

This statement seems true without context but false with context.

Allow me to provide the context:

If you're a Chinese internantional student living in the USA where the #1 guy in the country uses Identity Politics as its arsenal to win and lead the country, you, as an outsider, will feel insecure w.r.t of races.

If you're a Chinese international student coming back home to your country of origin, you're used to the situations there: that's what you were born with and that's your culture that you're used to for 18 years of your life. I mean, you're still free to roam the streets, eat any food, continue with your life as-is. It's not like you live in a jail.

If you're a typical Americans who doesn't like the government to limit virtually anything (yes, I'm dead serious, Americans want everything and they don't like rules), you probably look at other countries as some sort of un-democratic, nazi-like state. I've seen a few people here criticized Singapore! If you go to Singapore, there's only a limited number of citizens who dislike the leaders.

Context is very important when comparing two countries/cultures.

For example, I live in a no-gun country so I scratched my head hard whenever I see mass-shooting in the US every week killing your children just because folks love their guns. That's just... crazy.

Step inside a land/house by accident and gets killed by the homeowner's M14 is just... nuts (yes I know I'm exaggerating a bit).

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#45

Post by jorblumesea »

If China can continue this growth, this trend will continue. But China's financial system is a house of cards and it's unclear if they will make it out of the next recession without significant damage. There's serious strategic threats including opaque financial system, improper banking controls massive "market rigging" and government corruption. No one knows the true state of the Chinese economy, including China itself.

I wonder how many of these employees will make it back to the West eventually. Big if obviously as there are many unknowns.

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2173461/c...

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/ben-bernanke/2016/03/08/china...

https://www.ft.com/content/961b4b32-3fce-11e9-b896-fe36ec32a...

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#46

Post by nostrademons »

asdfman123 wrote: post #22
liberte82 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to blame Chinese students for not wanting to stay when they're being met with outright hostile rhetoric from the political establishment. Economic considerations completely aside, no one wants to live and work in that kind of environment.

No want wants to live in that kind of environment? In the US, Trump says mean things about certain types of immigrants. In China, you can be jailed with no due process for speaking out about human rights abuses. Also, better hope you're not in a religious minority. Don't say anything bad about the government, because they're watching you!

Most people make decisions based on how the environment affects them personally.

The type of Chinese immigrants who are likely to get Ph.Ds and work in high tech are generally not religious minorities (if they were, they likely wouldn't have gotten that far in the educational system). They're also not particularly interested in getting involved in politics or speaking out about human rights abuses. Usually if they get to that level of education and have the choice between staying in the U.S. to work for a tech company or research lab or going back to China, it's because they've devoted their life to mastering a specific scientific or technical subject. For someone in that position, likelihood of facing employment discrimination or being deported is generally a much bigger threat than lack of political freedoms.

Selection bias is the most powerful force in nature. The U.S. benefitted very significantly from dictatorships in the 1930-80s that actively repressed academics and educated people, because it forced all of them to move to the U.S, where we welcomed them with open arms. Most of these governments wised up (or rather, facing selection bias, they were overthrown by the consequences of raping their own nations), and now most of the rest of the world is quite welcoming of people with scientific and technical knowledge. The U.S. risks going down the same path if it adopts the same attitudes that didn't work for our competitors.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#47

Post by olcor »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #21
wesleyfsmith wrote: post #9

The most concerning quote: "About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now go back — up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Ministry of Education. Some 15 percent take jobs in China’s booming tech sector." Attracting top global talent has always been a competitive advance for America, and it's not a good sign for our economy if we can't retain people that we are educating here.

This is just as true with Indian students. Most people don't know how hard, how expensive, and how long it takes for someone to become a naturalized citizen. Combined with hostile rhetoric towards immigrants - and staying away from politics as much as possible, this is a big factor and not always precisely targeted to "illegal" immigration, the US is just not as attractive for knowledge workers as it was 5-10 years a…

I moved back home to India a couple months ago. Apart from the occasional mosquito bite and some customer service issues, there’s little difference.

No more nonsensical visa stuff to worry about; I live my current life and plan my future in peace.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#48

Post by natthub »

jonathankoren wrote: post #38
Causality1 wrote: post #13

We're quite far from the scale tipping in that direction, but it makes me curious about whether the US government has the legal authority to say "educating foreigners is no longer in the national interest, therefore it is no longer a valid reason to remain in the United States" and decimate the foreign student population essentially overnight.

The government can do whatever it wants when it comes to setting immigration laws. It's an enumerated power. F-1 (student) visas are already nonimmigration visas. After you graduate, you have a few months of "optional practical training" (OPT) and then you're expected to go home. Hopefully, you can get an H-1 ( another nonimmigration visa) to stay for at most six years, which is about how long it takes to get a Green…

> six years, which is about how long it takes to get a Green Card

Ha! Unless you're are an Indian or a Chinese, in which case it's more than 10 years (which is being quite optimistic)!!

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#49

Post by seanmcdirmid »

LastMuel wrote: post #42
educationdata wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This number does not mean much. In the old days, more Chinese students rely on full scholarship to study in the US. Now, more and more rich Chinese kids (mostly come with very poor academic background) can study in the US. So the overall number does not reflect "brain drain", because not all international students can be counted in "global talent". A more meaningful number should only count those graduated from good…

Wait, are you saying the only valuable students are the ones that didn’t pay for their education? Because that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.

No, what parent is saying is that there is a huge difference between a rich Chinese kid studying political science and a workin class Chinese kid studying computer science on a PhD stipend. The former has boomed in the last 10 years while the latter was pretty constant for the last 20+.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#50

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Andhurati wrote: post #14
akmarinov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they kind of contradict themselves later on > The pay discrepancy between Silicon Valley and China has narrowed since he launched in 2014, especially at top-tier firms. Wang’s engineers now make 70 percent to 80 percent of what they could get in America. So it was 700k in 2014, but now it's 70-80% of what US people would make.

With Chinese cost of living. So, no reason to stay in the Bay Area if you were raised in China.

The Bay Area is pretty expensive, if you are talking about China’s Bay Area around Shenzhen and Hong Kong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangdong-Hong_Kong-Macau_Gr...

It took me awhile to get used to the Bay Area being used in Chinese news sources to mean something entirely different from in the USA.

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