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A new book critiques medicine

blogs.scientificamerican.com

141–150 of 198 posts

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#141
Anyone receiving or delivering healthcare is aware of these problems. These kind of critiques suffer from the same basic problem - they treat Medicine as a monolithic entity which is not intimately linked with society, culture, the economy and government. This conceit is necessary to write a book about it, and is a luxury available only to those who don't need to actually deliver or administer healthcare. It is also not the same thing as 'trying to make things better', despite what the author may claim. In truth the author is actually critiquing what they have decided falls under the umbrella of medicine, which they define at a particular point in time.

The problem is incentives, not sure why this guy wrote a whole book without realising this, but it is an easy mistake to make if you are thinking about the problem from your writing desk. People will minimise effort and cost, given a choice, and maximise profit subject to constraints. This behaviour exists even in highly trained health professionals already making many hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Example - why do primary care doctors prescribe minimally effective drugs for depression? Is it because they can't understand a meta-analysis, can't remember all the patients the drugs didn't work for in their own practice, or because they are lazy or stupid? It is because a patient has come in looking for help and is sitting there in tears, and there is only 10 minutes to see them, and the history from the other doctor this person has been seeing for the last 5 years isn't available. And although everyone would be better off if the doctor spent an hour finding out in detail what is going on, carefully talking over the options, the side effects of various treatments and reaching a consensus management plan which starts with non-pharmacological therapies, and activates a government program which allows the patient to take extra time off work to attend therapy sessions with childcare facilities included. But it is easier for everyone to prescribe Prozac. This is the reality. Perverse incentives explain many of the problems in Medicine and healthcare systems. Nobody gets paid for delivering good care, nobody saves money by accepting good care. As shocking as it may be, delivering good care or exceptional care is a choice a health care team makes despite everything else. Similarly, accepting proven health care interventions is a choice a patient makes. Usually everything doesn't line up, and that is modern medicine.

The cited example of Gleevec also makes no sense to me. It revolutionised the treatment of 2 conditions which were almost completely untreatable beforehand (Chronic Myeloid Leukaemia and Gastrointestinal Stromal Tumour). The alternatives to taking Gleevec for these patients were A) Toxic minimally effective chemotherapy followed by death or B) Just death. All of this context is extremely important in discussing the side-effects which can be severe. This is what the patient and the doctor work out together. Some throwaway line about how toxic it is just makes no sense in isolation.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#142
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have no friggen clue what you're talking about Please do better than this, regardless of how wrong or ignorant another comment is. Your post gives us no information other than about yourself. If you know more, please share some of what you know so the rest of us can learn. Please don't just name-call. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

Sorry. You're right, dang, I could have done better. I was not intending to name-call; to me, the entire comment was wrong and I posted a curt reaction. I'll provide more info here: "The level of legitimacy and respect that doctors and hospitals currently have is far too high..." Ask any young doctor in the US whether their field has a lot of "respect". Medical residents work 80-100 hours per week in windowless, flou…

Much better. Thanks!

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Western' medicine though as opposed to what? Nostalgic prescientific systems such as Chinese, ayurvedic, etc don't do anything at all. So yes, scientific medicine definitely has huge lacunae. Given the relative slowness of progress in understanding complex systems science has had in general, they'll be there for a long to come. But it's not as if there's some other candidate 'system' that has a better understanding.

As opposed to something holistic but still scientific. By “holistic” I mean that western medicine divides specializations too much and anything that doesn’t fit one box just falls outside everyone’s field. Generalist doctors aren’t very holistic either - they tend to just treat very common things or refer to a specialist. Example: if you have abdominal pains, you will be referred to a gastrointestinal specialist. Aft…

That’s kind of like complaining because programmers don’t know every language.

GP’s refer to specialists because medicine is such a huge body of work. Keeping up with even a small field takes a lot of time. Someone that tries to keep up with and more importantly remember everything is not going to succeed let alone have time to help you. Sometimes the next step is to take these results go up the chain and try again not hope the wrong specialist can still solve your issue.

It’s not a perfect system, especially if you actually have multiple independent unusual issues at the same time. But, that’s life with imperfect humans.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#144
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On average, U.S. medical schools offer only 19.6 hours of nutrition education across four years of medical school https://health.usnews.com/wellness/food/articles/2016-12-07/...

That's for basic med school education. Happily, medical education doesn't stop at the end of med school. It is more like, beginning just at that moment. Otherwise many more patients would die. So yes, on paper you're right. In practice, there are even clinical nutrition specialists and those are MDs.

In practice, nutritional interventions are much less favored over drug interventions.

For example, a simple ketogenic diet intervention can be a very effective treatment for type 2 diabetes. But most doctors still favor the 1960s-era, discredited science saying dietary fat causes heart disease.

So diabetics are given metformin and whatever fancy new insulin came out recently. And then in 20 years, those people will likely lose their feet and eyes.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#145
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have no friggen clue what you're talking about Please do better than this, regardless of how wrong or ignorant another comment is. Your post gives us no information other than about yourself. If you know more, please share some of what you know so the rest of us can learn. Please don't just name-call. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

Sorry. You're right, dang, I could have done better. I was not intending to name-call; to me, the entire comment was wrong and I posted a curt reaction. I'll provide more info here: "The level of legitimacy and respect that doctors and hospitals currently have is far too high..." Ask any young doctor in the US whether their field has a lot of "respect". Medical residents work 80-100 hours per week in windowless, flou…

What this really makes me believe even more is that medicine as an institution is completely bankrupt. There are for sure selfless doctors who sacrifice for their patients. And medical care is fantastic for acute injuries and conditions.

But the system as a whole is very ineffectual for chronic diseases, and I would argue, outright harmed the public with its dietary recommendations.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#146

These comments just reek of the silicon valley tech-bro myth that because you're good with computers you must know better than the millions of brilliant smart people in $INDUSTRY. The absolute arrogance.

And yet, in every 100 bullshit tech-bro commenters, there are 10 who are actually getting really interested in the subject and taking the time to check their old Bio notes, research opposing viewpoints, or maybe even bring something new to the table.

Hating is easy. All you have to do is point fingers at people and tell them they know nothing. 100% of the time you'll be right.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#147

These comments just reek of the silicon valley tech-bro myth that because you're good with computers you must know better than the millions of brilliant smart people in $INDUSTRY. The absolute arrogance.

Good solutions can often be left on the table, even by experts in $INDUSTRY, apart from whether they're experts or not; it's often a systemic thing. It's perfectly possible for an intelligent, rational person who is good at thinking about large and complex systems (who are overrepresented in the tech industry) to have an insight (that individuals in that industry might already have had) about things outside their own industry.

Relevant article: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/30/book-review-inadequate...

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#148
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, ubiome is a fraud, and (anecdote) 23andme made a mistake in reading my genome and their data showed that I had an incredibly deadly cancer predisposition (Li-Fraumeni), which a reputable medical lab showed to be false.

ubiome is a ycombinator company. Why would you call them a fraud. I've done a number of tests over a period after antiobiotics and I definately saw the change into diversity correlate with the foods I introduced.

You'd be surprised how many scams Ycombinator accepts. Quantstamp cough cough.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#149
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to something holistic but still scientific. By “holistic” I mean that western medicine divides specializations too much and anything that doesn’t fit one box just falls outside everyone’s field. Generalist doctors aren’t very holistic either - they tend to just treat very common things or refer to a specialist. Example: if you have abdominal pains, you will be referred to a gastrointestinal specialist. Aft…

That’s kind of like complaining because programmers don’t know every language. GP’s refer to specialists because medicine is such a huge body of work. Keeping up with even a small field takes a lot of time. Someone that tries to keep up with and more importantly remember everything is not going to succeed let alone have time to help you. Sometimes the next step is to take these results go up the chain and try again n…

It's really more like wishing a consultancy would employ a competent project manager. The thing about systems is that they're designed (even if only by refusing to design and calling it 'market driven'). Some work better than others.

I've certainly seen the difference in the small number of countries I've lived in - some do a much better job of coordinating services between generalists & specialists than others. But this has nothing to do with 'western' medical science per se, which is the primary modality of each of those varying systems.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#150

These comments just reek of the silicon valley tech-bro myth that because you're good with computers you must know better than the millions of brilliant smart people in $INDUSTRY. The absolute arrogance.

Good solutions can often be left on the table, even by experts in $INDUSTRY, apart from whether they're experts or not; it's often a systemic thing. It's perfectly possible for an intelligent, rational person who is good at thinking about large and complex systems (who are overrepresented in the tech industry) to have an insight (that individuals in that industry might already have had) about things outside their own…

Your relevant article doesn't even get the first paragraph right. The Efficient Market Hypothesis doesn't mean eg that markets result in efficient use of resources or societally efficient/optimal outcomes, which the author seems to imply.
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