India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped • Hacker News Board

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#151

Post by dahart » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

astazangasta wrote: post #128

dahart wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish this comment was less baited. If your argument is true and strong, then you don’t need to dismiss it as fan behavior or call it a fetish. Your argument is also demonstrably weak. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

Yeah, where would we be without LASIK? I'll also note that that article notably elides things like ICBMs and the other myriad military applications, since it is clearly intended as a puff piece to make us view space technologies as benevolent and positive. As for my tone, perhaps you are right that I don't need to employ ridicule; but I wish to, because I feel contempt for this position so strongly I want to make it…

Ahhh, you're commenting on your contempt for the military, I see that now. I didn't get that at first, from your apparent comment about economics. ("the fact is that technology development is not some generic facility; if you develop technology devoted to getting things up into orbit, it will basically give you the expertise to do that. It doesn't, say, develop your semiconductor design, biochemistry, medicine, agriculture, or whatever else your country might need.")

Both the space programs and the military have well documented positive direct and indirect effects on private business, and both have many spinoff technologies that do benefit society. That is in addition to some well documented negative impacts, not to mention wars and death. But you didn't really want to talk about the economics, right?

If you just don't want to build weapons and don't think we should as a society, that's a reasonable view to hold, I can certainly find some ground to agree with you. Personally, I'll just suggest choosing clarity and not ridicule might help get that point across and convince more people. The sarcasm and ridicule tend to alienate, especially if you're talking directly to people who might enjoy space topics and would otherwise agree with you that weapon building is ugly business. You're choosing to ridicule innocent bystanders, rather than the people making weapons.

> Space fetishism is a diversion that exists to bilk engineers into careers and positions that are in aid of the military.

That makes it sound like a conspiracy theory, as if nobody would be interested in space were it not for the sneaky military. Isaac Newton had a space fetish and died before NASA or the US military industrial complex began. You didn't get tricked into a NASA career, right? I know a few engineers that have worked in space & military applications, and all the ones I know participated knowingly.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#152

Post by avip » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

karthikb wrote: post #150

whatshisface wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, very little energy was spent on questioning whether spending in space was right thing to do. That's not true. Public opinion about the moon missions was divided throughout the whole program, and a lot of effort was spent debating it. It is only in retrospect that it seems like a no-brainer, because everyone who was against it has been forgotten and we know it was a success.

See “Whitey on the Moon” for a great example of then-contemporary debate over the nation’s priorities.

Completely coincidently I've heard it today first time starting with Angel-dust and flowing with YouTube's suggested. I'm completing my GSH education as we speak.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#153

Post by dang » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

astazangasta wrote: post #128

dahart wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish this comment was less baited. If your argument is true and strong, then you don’t need to dismiss it as fan behavior or call it a fetish. Your argument is also demonstrably weak. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

Yeah, where would we be without LASIK? I'll also note that that article notably elides things like ICBMs and the other myriad military applications, since it is clearly intended as a puff piece to make us view space technologies as benevolent and positive. As for my tone, perhaps you are right that I don't need to employ ridicule; but I wish to, because I feel contempt for this position so strongly I want to make it…

Would you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? That includes name-calling like "fetish", which the site guidelines also ask you specifically to avoid.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: alas, your comment history indicates that you've been using this site primarily for ideological battle rather than curiosity. We ban accounts that do that regardless of what they're battling for, because these two things aren't compatible, the one drowns out the other, and HN is for curiosity. If you'd please review the guidelines and use the site as intended, we'd be grateful.

You might also find these links helpful for getting the original spirit of the site:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/hackernews.html

http://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html

http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#154

Post by adventured » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #105

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just a matter of time No, it’s not. The middle income trap is treacherous. I am optimistic for India. But there will be struggles and sacrifices; ascendency is far from inevitable.

Could you elaborate on this middle income trap? Have other nations fallen victim to this trap, in the recent past - say 30-50 years or so? I fully agree that ascendancy or primacy is far from inevitable and am generally far less optimistic than you , in these things. But could you shed light on what sorts of factors prevented a nation similar in its growth spurt from continued growth? What kneecapped them?

The prominent examples are:

Russia, Turkey, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Poland, Slovakia, Czech, Hungary, South Africa, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Chile

There are several other nations in Europe and Latin America, that have been stuck in the middle income trap for some time (such as Uruguay, Paraguay, Peru, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Panama, Serbia, Croatia and Bulgaria).

Albania and Macedonia have been stuck in it, with little further progress, since the early to mid 2000s.

Africa has a few others besides South Africa, such as Gabon (trapped since the mid 1970s), Botswana (trapped since 1990) and Algeria (since the early 1980s).

Lebanon has been stuck for 20 years. Jordan has been stuck since the early 1980s.

Portugal may just be outside of it or at the ceiling, at $23k per capita; however in inflation adjusted terms they've seen close to zero per capita growth since 1992. Greece is an odd case, hard to say whether they ever escaped the middle income trap, or whether the good years before the crash were entirely fake. On an inflation adjusted basis Greece has also seen close to zero per capita growth since 1992.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#155

Post by shripadk » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 10:00 PM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #116

jvanderbot wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Walls up" "Self made" Exactly.

The rumor is Russian leaked India some of the tech. Most of it was well k own anyway

Do you realise just how ridiculous you sound right now?

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#156

Post by avip » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 10:02 PM UTC

scotchmi_st wrote: post #109

lewisjoe wrote: post #36

Folks who suggest dealing with poverty before launching machines to space: the economy doesn't work like that, FYI. If a country acquires deep technical know-how on engineering, it means the country can use it to spin out new industries and export that utility. That is how a country makes money. After world war II, Germany didn't give away all the remaining money to war survivors. They built rock-solid airplane engin…

The thing that irritates me more than anything about the argument that sending people to space is a bad idea is the unique bias people have against space technologies. No-one ever says "We spend billions on Football; let's spend it on poor people instead", or "We spend billions on the music and film industries, let's shut those down and instead tax everyone for the average entertainment spend and send the proceeds to…

People say that all the time (we could take all that money from X and invest in Y). It's called a false dichotomy.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#157

Post by shripadk » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

mruts wrote: post #70

suyash wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, you must be joking, in fact it's the opposite. It's majority of Indians who are doing cutting edge research and innovating just look at what's going on any day in Silicon Valley or any top Universities. Now they are starting to do the same in their country while being creative with lost cost solutions.

You’re saying it’s Indians that are doing the majority (>%50) of cutting edge research? That’s just not true, even in the slightest.

http://www.forbesindia.com/article/innovation-special/18-ind...

EDIT: Since Hacker News won't allow me to post a reply. I am editing this post here.

You misunderstood what he said. He said that "majority of Indians" are doing cutting-edge research in foreign Universities. Not "majority of cutting-edge research" are being done by Indians. Both have different meanings. Most Indians who travel to foreign countries get higher education grants/fellowships to work on cutting-edge research. Very few Indians actually travel for undergraduate courses. India has prestigious universities like IITs/NITs which are equal to and in some cases better than Western counterparts. The reason why Indians travel to Western countries for research is because of lack of research grants to carry out Scientific experiments that might run into many millions/billions of dollars. In other words, this is brain drain at its finest.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#158

Post by sanxiyn » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

meruru wrote: post #139

Chathamization wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the excuses for spending billions of dollars hosting the Olympics. "All the infrastructure improvements will help the locals!" Well, yes, but if infrastructure is your goal there are a lot less costly ways to go about it. I'm sure a country that decided to build an underwater amusement park would end up acquiring some technical know-how on engineering, but that doesn't make that a practical goal.

An underwater amusement park would be a nice goal to develop underwater construction technology actually. I could see that being important if the surface of the Earth becomes inhospitable and it perhaps could be popular enough as an attraction to be able to get early returns in the investment.

There already is an underwater hotel in the Maldives...

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#159

Post by mopsi » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 10:11 PM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #119

javagram wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of Olympic infrastructure is wasted since it involves stuff like building stadiums that are then unused after the Olympics. Investment for an Olympics-type event can be useful if it results in the creation of durable multipurpose infrastructure like transit lines though. The US Space Race helped us become a leader in satellite launch, which is a productive industry on its own terms now. Weather satellites, GPS,…

US Space Race was toward the useless side, given that GPS or comsat do not require human spaceflight. Soviet Union was more sensible.

There's more than GPS. Human spaceflight has produced many valuable non-invasive wearable biomedical devices because sending up a doctor to monitor the astronaut was not an option. NASA research into nutrition has given us better infant formulas. Research into protection of astronauts' eyes has lead to UV-blocking sunglasses. Etc etc.

Re: India is sending a rover to the moon, and the country is pumped

#160

Post by shripadk » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 10:13 PM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #121

sanxiyn wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India didn't acquire launch technology "via globalisation". In fact, when India attempted technology transfer from Russia, US objected citing Missile Technology Control Regime, and India had to develop their own.

Yea. They basically went back to first principles on relativity I hear. They had nothing to go on. No well understood science in the public domain at all. And the objection was around the seeker technology more specifically

If you want to keep going back in time why not go all the way back to Science that was founded in India and was taken and adopted by the West? How about we go all the way back to the numeral system (which originated from the Brahmi numerals) without which there would be no foundation for any future Scientific discoveries? It is ridiculous to keep going back in time to justify something that is happening today. Every race has contributed to Science in its own way. To ridicule the efforts of the present day Scientists by continuously invoking the past is absolutely uncalled for. No matter how much you try to hide scientific discoveries it will eventually find its way out of your grasp. That is how it has been since time immemorial and will never change just because you wish so.