Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated • Hacker News Board

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#61

Post by gruez » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

redder2 wrote: post #33

Some interesting arguments. I think the argument that he has better things to do then think of taking a bag "everythere". You do not need a bag small in hand purchases and when you really go shopping you should and can easily bring a bag when you go shopping. When it comes to regulations I would trust the US with nothing. The EU has probably way better regulations for landfills like for food and other things. While a…

>when you really go shopping you should and can easily bring a bag when you go shopping.

There's a Danish study[1] that concluded that reusable bags require 50+ uses before breaking even with disposable plastic bags. And that's for one use. If you reuse the disposable bag once (to line your garbage bin, for example), the break even point is now 100+ uses. If you factor in cleaning costs for the reusable bags, I'd be surprised if this practice makes a dent on pollution, if at all.

[1] https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-...

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#62

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

rikroots wrote: post #27

As clickbait, I have to applaud the author. tl;dr: As a sustainable (heh!) solution to the current waste crisis, landfilling everything is not a good solution. We tried it for many centuries and are still paying the price for that approach today. The only people who will benefit from a 'landfill everything' strategy will be 23rd century archaeologists. As the UK is mentioned a couple of times in the article, I'll add…

[deleted]

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#63

Post by bikenaga » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #12

>Properly run landfill doesn’t hurt the environment in itself. >[...] But a well run landfill site has [...] electricity generation from gases produced by decaying matter, This sounds like a pipe dream. We don't even have reliable estimates on how much landfill outgas there is, much less a good system for burning it. It's believed to be largely methane, which would be valuable without further processing if it could b…

There are a number of landfills in PA which produce methane which is used directly, or for generating power. Here's a list: https://www.dep.pa.gov/Business/Land/Waste/SolidWaste/Munici...

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#64

Post by benj111 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #49

Liron wrote: post #30

We really shot ourselves in the foot with this whole pointless "recycling paper and plastic" thing huh? The convenience of throwing something away is a triumph of modern civilization and one of life's little pleasures, and we had to ruin it by acting like it's wrong when it's actually not. When I walk up to some wastebins holding a papery-plasticky object with a bit of food stuck to it, my heart sinks. Now I have to…

> The convenience of throwing something away is a triumph of modern civilization ... I think you got it backwards. Throwing stuff away was the normal way of life before modern civilization arrived, just like defecating wherever you find convenient, hunting animals for dinner, or riding hoses on whatever side of road you like. The wonder of modern civilization gave us so much power to produce stuff that it's no longer…

"The wonder of modern civilization gave us so much power to produce stuff that it's no longer feasible to just "throw away""

By the same token, it gave us the power to produce so much stuff that we can afford to throw stuff away.

Who darns socks anymore? Or has their tv repaired?

Your average family of 100 years ago was throwing away ashes and what? The rag and bone man collected rags and bones, veg peelings would have gone to a chicken/pig/compost. Paper probably went in the fire. Plastic was none existent, metal? (rag and bone man? I'm guessing there was a market for it somewhere).

This was the situation in the UK at least.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#65

Post by benj111 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

slfnflctd wrote: post #51

wbraun wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully share this cynicism about recycling things that are not aluminum or glass. It also seems that by making people feel better about generating nominally recyclable waste they are encouraged to consume more. I am at least familiar with arguments against US-style airport security and donating cans of food, but whats wrong with hybrid cars? I don't know of any arguments that they are net neutral / harmful.

In the past, I was bearish on hybrids. They seemed overcomplicated and ineffectual. After having driven one for a while, I've done a complete 180. The fact is, they're a perfect interim solution which really brings 'the best of both worlds'. One thing I wasn't expecting was how the system trains me to drive differently and minimize wasteful fuel use-- something that simply doesn't exist in non-hybrids. I think they m…

"overcomplicated"

From a mechanical pov?

Your experience doesn't seem like it would refute that? To be fair I'm not sure how you could refute it without long term large scale reliability testing.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#66

Post by benj111 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

dehrmann wrote: post #55

melling wrote: post #2

NYC ships its garbage hundreds, and even thousands of miles in some cases: https://www.freshairfortheeastside.com/latestnews/2018/1/22/... There’s even a poop train to Alabama: https://beta.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/04/...

Shipping by rail and sea is incredibly efficient. Some googling tells me rail is 471 ton-miles per gallon. The average American produces 1600 lbs of trash per year, so you can ship one person's trash for a year almost 600 miles with one gallon of fuel. Even long-distance trash transportation is a negligible contributor to someone's oil use.

Could you not extract the methane, and run the train on it, and transport it for free?

Poopetual motion? (sorry for the shit jokes)

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#67

Post by angry_octet » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #4

This is true enough (in some markets and some circumstances, yada yada), but sort of missing the point. A world where all the Good Liberals are trained to recycle everything into hand sorted artisinal bins that they keep next to their compost containers is one where people think about what they purchase and push for public policies that worry about resource consumption in ways that benefit all of us. A world (we live…

Container deposit for aluminum works pretty well. Steel is relatively easy to extract from trash with magnets. Separating methane producing non-toxic waste might be meaningful too. But having people wash/transport/sort plastics which can't be recycled is bad, and shouldn't be incentivised. Making corporations pay for non-recyclable plastic is a market mechanism which fiscal conservatives should applaud.

Casting this as a goody Lefty vs selfish conservative argument is pointless.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#68

Post by Panino » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

pizza234 wrote: post #15

> Properly run landfill doesn’t hurt the environment in itself. ... and properly written software has no security vulnerabilities.

I once helped out a project which involved talking to a landfill operator. They mentioned that deer like to drink the water pooling in the landfill and theorized that it tasted "sweet." Of course, hunters then kill and eat these deer.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#69

Post by undershirt » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

guitarbill wrote: post #5

> Plastics come from oil, which we are gradually running out of, though not quickly. I guess it depends on your definition of "quickly", or it would be good to see a citation on this one. Personally, I believe that if we encourage recycling more, that creates an opportunity for companies to innovate in that space and come up with better recycling methods. So in that respect, I'd prefer to over-recycle than under-recy…

> I guess it depends on your definition of "quickly", or it would be good to see a citation on this one.

A citation in your favor would be how net energy output only slowly declines as EROI plummets[1]. Slow decline is a general property of these types ”Seneca Cliffs”[2] present in collapse.

[1] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2019-03-12/the-real-energ...

[2] https://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/2011/08/seneca-effect-o...

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#70

Post by hakfoo » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 8:16 PM UTC

tomatocracy wrote: post #36

pizza234 wrote: post #15

> Properly run landfill doesn’t hurt the environment in itself. ... and properly written software has no security vulnerabilities.

Part of the problem with landfill is that the economics are largely 'profit first, cost later'. We don't really have a good model to ensure that long term maintenance and care of a landfill site post closure is always adequately funded so there's always a risk that an owner who might well have made all his capital investment back, and more, before the landfill closed just runs out of money and walks away no matter ho…

I always thought there was a fortune to be made in buying the mining rights to old landfills.

I'd expect compressed old consumer goods to be a rich "ore" for many valuable materials compared to many natural sources, and having the mining operation there would provide an endgame for the landfill that ensured it was being monitored and managed.

The problem is that it assumes that mining operations are well regulated, which I suspect would not be the case.