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The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

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Re: The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

#71

Post by pimmen »

dmitrybrant wrote: post #55

In principle I agree that "it is up to the child to choose his or her destiny. It is never up to the parent." However, the following thought comes to mind: The best musicians in the world, as well as the best figure skaters, the best gymnasts, the best tennis players, etc. seem to have been "pushed" into it by their parents, or at the very least heavily influenced. If parents didn't push their kids in this way, would…

Yes, I think we actually would because I don’t see much evidence that the number of talented kids who were pushed into it because of their obvious talents is greater than the number of kids who were talented but lacked the opportunities or support to actually do it.

My baby brother was a very good soccer player and was able to go to a selective high school in Sweden which uses very competitive try outs. Some of his classmates played in the highest league in Sweden and made more money than their own parents. My brother was a hopeful for the top league, until he broke his knee. He recovered and invested months of training to get back into shape, better shape than he ever was, to make the top teams see beyond his past injury and be so good they can’t ignore him. Then he broke the other knee and was damaged goods. The third highest league was as far as he could get and soccer stayed a hobby until he had to work and study at the same time at 20.

On the other hand, my brother had classmates who really wanted to postpone college and go all in playing on the elite level, and their parents refused. These parents were often highly educated themselves and just couldn’t see how such a high risk career as athletics could be a sound investment of one’s time.

I think if youths got to make their own career choices we would still have the same caliber of artists, athletes and what not because even the children who were pushed into it had to find some meaning behind what they did. Training for five hours straight is one thing, actually being receptive to what you need to learn while training for five hours is hard for anyone who doesn’t really care.

Re: The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

#72

Post by barry-cotter »

smt88 wrote: post #40
emsy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Societal factors do exist, but are often overstated or don’t bear a scientific foundation. A lot of social sciences have done real harm to scientific progress and the field of evolutionary psychology.

Birth control and women's rights, and marrying for love[1] are fairly new (within the last 20-100 yrs) and limited to a handful of countries. We just don't have data on how humans behave when such huge reprodutive variables change. Seeing how a single generation responds isn't a long enough time period, because children accumulate the social norms of their parents. 1. https://www.livescience.com/37777-history-of-marr…

We do have data on this. In the modern educated industrialised environment intelligence reduces fertility.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/twin-research-and-hu...

> How Intelligence Affects Fertility 30 Years On: Retherford and Sewell Revisited — With Polygenic Scores and Numbers of Grandchildren

> Using newly available polygenic scores for educational attainment and cognitive ability, this paper investigates the possible presence and causes of a negative association between IQ and fertility in the Wisconsin Longitudinal Study sample, an issue that Retherford and Sewell first addressed 30 years ago. The effect of the polygenic score on the sample’s reproductive characteristics was indirect: a latent cognitive ability measure, comprised of both educational attainment and IQ, wholly mediated the relationship. Age at first birth mediated the negative effect of cognitive ability on sample fertility, which had a direct (positive) effect on the number of grandchildren. Significantly greater impacts of cognitive ability on the sample’s fertility characteristics were found among the female subsample. This indicates that, in this sample, having a genetic disposition toward higher cognitive ability does not directly reduce number of offspring; instead, higher cognitive ability is a risk factor for prolonging reproductive debut, which, especially for women, reduces the fertility window and, thus, the number of children and grandchildren that can be produced. By estimating the effect of the sample’s reproductive characteristics on the strength of polygenic selection, it was found that the genetic variance component of IQ should be declining at a rate between −.208 (95% CI [−.020, −.383]) and −.424 (95% CI [−.041, −.766]) points per decade, depending on whether GCTA-GREML or classical behavior genetic estimates of IQ heritability are used to correct for ‘missing’ heritability.

Re: The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

#73

Post by akhilcacharya »

An underrated part of this is the impact it has if they dont end up being accomplished. I was in an AG program K-8 but ended up getting mediocre SATs and living a pretty average life.

I’m personally very skeptical of the utility of similar programs now. I’m beginning to think keeping consistent expectations for everyone and letting those with differing interests or aptitudes enrich themselves is more egalitarian, especially for people who aren’t intellectually gifted (like me).

Re: The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

#74

Post by steve_adams_86 »

bitreality wrote: post #5
torstenvl wrote: post #2

It's hard to identify the thesis here. Is the thesis that intelligence is a myth? If so, the post provides precious little evidence in support. Is it that smart children are overburdened by expectations and anxiety? If so, the "evidence" is a set of personal anecdotes and hyperbolic generalizations. It is, quite simply, not factual that teenagers are made to study 24 hours per day, 7 days per week. If that occurred,…

It reads like a 1000 word humblebrag.

In my experience, people who grew up under pressure to perform and with frequent external validation of their intelligence tend to humble brag a lot. I wonder if it's simply because they're mirroring what people have done to them. I grew up with something much different and find the bragging repulsive, but perhaps that's an expression of my own insecurity or jealousy to a degree.

Re: The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

#75

Post by andrei_says_ »

danenania wrote: post #70

Being a new dad, this is something I've begun thinking a lot about. Reading about CBT (Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy) has shed some light on this issue for me. I think the core problem is when a child is taught that their value to the family and to society is based on extrinsic rather than intrinsic factors. If you are made to believe that you are valuable as a human because you are x, y, or z subjective determination…

You will resonate with Aktie Kohn’s Unconditional Parenting which cites a lot of research confirming the long term futility and harm of extrinsic pressures encoded in common parenting practices and educational institutions.

Re: The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

#76

Post by sam_goody »

A camp I worked at had a 11 year old genius as a camper. The real kind, the one that could list all of the elements on the periodic table from memory and discuss them with a clear understanding of their properties.

I asked to have him in my bunk; I am not a genius and will readily admit to be his inferior - so no need for competition there (I might even learn from him!). On the other hand, he had clear social deficiencies and was not very sportive, so there are plenty of things he could learn from me. He needed to be grown and changed from an egotistical insecure kid to a insightful intelligent young adult.

Instead the camp gave him to the charge of a counselor who was also a genius, and as expected they spent the whole summer each trying to prove they were smarter than the other. The kid usually won, but I can't imagine the summer contributed to a growing experience.

Remember that genius doesn't make a person. Don't let it blindside your treatment of them if you are charged with raising them. They need adults to teach them about life, even if the adults can't do math as fast as they could.

Re: The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

#77

Post by astazangasta »

Retra wrote: post #65
astazangasta wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? And? This is one of the most profound and basic observations of twentieth century philosophy. That is what social construction is, it underlies our basic notions of perception and reality. Read this book: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Construction_of_R...

What you've said is not profound. When you go around saying "the sky is blue" people aren't wrong to assume you meant something relevant, rather than just tossing out vague and trivial statements.

I'm not sure what to do with this remark. You said my definition of social construction was untenable because the implications were too broad and you seemed to find that frightening. I responded by saying that social construction IS a theory with broad implications and gave you a reference to read, since you seem to be unfamiliar with these concepts. Your response seems a non sequitur.

Re: The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

#78

Post by akhilcacharya »

danenania wrote: post #70

Being a new dad, this is something I've begun thinking a lot about. Reading about CBT (Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy) has shed some light on this issue for me. I think the core problem is when a child is taught that their value to the family and to society is based on extrinsic rather than intrinsic factors. If you are made to believe that you are valuable as a human because you are x, y, or z subjective determination…

> This doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to do great things or encourage our children to do the same if they're inspired to. But before that, we need to learn to be satisfied with a simple life just existing in the world as ourselves without any extraordinary achievements.

Amazingly put. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, I’m of two minds on this) I’m convinced this is a feature rather than a bug of American society. Deriving self worth from accomplishments is force fed culturally in every direction, including places where I wouldn’t necessarily expect it like politics (see Trumps Ivy League name dropping and Buttigiegs support relying heavily on his Harvard credentials).

Of course, would society be better off otherwise? I’m not sure.

Re: The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

#79

Post by hi5eyes »

sam_goody wrote: post #76

A camp I worked at had a 11 year old genius as a camper. The real kind, the one that could list all of the elements on the periodic table from memory and discuss them with a clear understanding of their properties. I asked to have him in my bunk; I am not a genius and will readily admit to be his inferior - so no need for competition there (I might even learn from him!). On the other hand, he had clear social deficie…

>Remember that genius doesn't make a person

adding to that. my friend is a straight up genius, can do calculations in his head faster than you can type them into wolfram alpha. people in my highschool used to ask him to do questions like a monkey

the only friends he had were people that talked to him like a normal person, shot the shit and went to parties together instead of asking him for homework help

Re: The Intelligence Myth – Why I cringe when someone tells me my child is smart

#80

Post by DoreenMichele »

fromthestart wrote: post #56
DoreenMichele wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I skimmed it. It's not a particularly compelling piece, but research supports the idea that praising kids for "being smart" is inherently problematic. Furthermore, she's a woman in a man's world. Women tend to spend a great deal of their time performing unpaid labor in the form of raising children and running the household -- aka "women's work." This creates myriad problems in them trying to establish a public reputa…

>unpaid labor in the form of raising children and running the household What a backwards society we increasingly live in, where putting time and effort into one of the most rewarding aspects of life, tending to the success and well-being of your offspring, is dismissed as "unpaid labor." >Women are constantly put in a double bind when it comes to trying to claim their competence, establish a public life, etc. Maybe t…

I was full-time wife and mom supporting my husband's demanding military career for two decades. Post divorce, I've struggled to make ends meet the entire time, in spite of having six years of college and still receiving alimony to this day, more than a decade later. This includes a stint of nearly six years of homelessness.

I also have a serious medical condition, so you can't blame it entirely on my gender. But I'm quite confident my gender is a significant factor in my intractable poverty.

My sons are incredibly loyal to me. They still live with me and tell me every single day "You're an awesome mom and I'm so glad you raised me."

I certainly don't regret raising them. But I'm extremely tired of being poor and also tired of listening to bullshit about how it's somehow not actually due to sexism.

Being told I'm being dismissive of the value of the work I lovingly devoted myself to for leaving a supportive comment about some other woman's writing is ...wow. I don't even have the words for this.

Like I said, women are damned if they do, damned if they don't. And I hope other people here see your reply as evidence of the kind of uphill battle I'm talking about.

It's quite the rarity these days for an American woman of my age who is college educated to have spent two decades as a homemaker. If I can't comment on the pitfalls involved in that without being attacked as disrespecting women, who the hell can?

Oh, I know: no one. Because the entire point is to make it impossible to escape the trap. The entire point of societal sexism is to keep women "barefoot and pregnant."

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