Palantir’s User Manual for Cops • Hacker News Board

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#111

Post by lisper » Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

zymhan wrote: post #108

lisper wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it also seemed like something big brother would say to get me to give up freedoms Or to keep up morale at the agency. The one indisputable fact is that actual attacks are very rare. So there are only two possibilities: 1. Law enforcement is exceptionally effective at stopping them, or 2. There are very few attempted attacks to begin with. Here's a data point to help you decide which of these is more likely: https:/…

You should've just stopped after number 2. I trust the intelligence community as little as the next techno-privacy-nut but obviously no one can come to any decision on a complex question with ONE data point.

That depends on the data point and the hypothesis. For example, the claim that the Titanic was unsinkable was pretty definitively falsified with a single data point.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#112

Post by lisper » Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #97

lisper wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it also seemed like something big brother would say to get me to give up freedoms Or to keep up morale at the agency. The one indisputable fact is that actual attacks are very rare. So there are only two possibilities: 1. Law enforcement is exceptionally effective at stopping them, or 2. There are very few attempted attacks to begin with. Here's a data point to help you decide which of these is more likely: https:/…

I don't think a datapoint about a bunch of airport security guards paid minimum wage with minimal training is relevant to the intelligence community. At least I hope not.

Law enforcement (of which TSA is a subset) is a customer of the intelligence community. If they aren't, what could possibly be the point?

(You might also want to re-read the headline.)

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#113

Post by zarathustraa » Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #110

zarathustraa wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There really is no meaningful way to know that the data being put in is PII, or to regulate how the orgs that use it, do so. And even if we did put in any such safeguard Since you advertise that your tech is suitable for lead sourcing, you obviously don't see anything wrong with mining and linking databases of PII information, as long as it's done by "the good guys".

Since you advertise that your tech is suitable for lead sourcing We don't. The line you quoted above is from my LinkedIn profile where it's describing my responsibilities as founder of the company. So, of course, part of what I do is prospecting and identifying leads. All companies do that, I don't think anything we do falls into the "nefarious" range. We aren't using retargeting or buying user information from data…

I apologize for reading the linkedin line in the wrong key.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#114

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

count wrote: post #90

bsamuels wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that we can compare cybersecurity to government intelligence agencies. Cybersecurity is a field that can only grow by making people fear for their computer security, which is why you often hear such exaggerated numbers for "attacks". You could argue the same thing about the CIA, but there's no direct financial incentive like there is for growing your cybersecurity business. I believe the real crux of th…

I was using that as an illustration, not a direct comparison. Govt employees are graded and promoted based on two primary things: # of subordinates and $ managed. There is a tremendous incentive to grow your career through a mindset that you're always under attack. And, depending on your personal point of view YOU MIGHT NOT BE WRONG. I didn't say they weren't doing that, I was just suggesting that that frame of mind…

You may be onto something, but I am not certain it is just a quality of govt employees. BSA depts seem to house a lot of people, who would love nothing more than to expand those laws even further. I am not saying you are wrong. I think it is just a sad reality that people push in the direction that benefit them most.

edit. added not. completely changes the ending. sry

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#115

Post by singron » Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

TrueDuality wrote: post #30

chance_state wrote: post #2

What motivates extremely talented tech workers to devote their limited working years to making the world a worse place to live in?

I almost guarantee that these engineers have a very different value set than you. They could possibly see this as granting law enforcement legitimate and authorized access to collect evidence needed to prosecute real criminals. In their minds abuses of the technology they make is likely the illegal part not the existence of their tool itself. Most of the responses I'm seeing here are about money and while that is pro…

So far every job orientation I've done has been 10% information useful for doing the job and 90% making me feel good about the job. You probably didn't take the job if you didn't feel at least a little good about it. If you don't feel good about the job anymore, then you probably quit. This pattern makes sure that the organization is mostly full of people that support it.

Most of your feelings aren't rational conclusions based on sound analytical reasoning, and if your day-to-day is just making widgets for other widgets, you probably aren't often forced to update them.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#116

Post by ORioN63 » Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

dfsegoat wrote: post #29

Doches wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is genuinely the most amusing joke I've heard today. How do you think background checks for purchases work?

I am not sure why it is amusing? The interpretation is correct: The background system is called NICS [1], and all information submitted to it is destroyed after 1 day. The system only outputs PROCEED or DENY to the FFL when someone is being checked for a firearms purchase. 1 - "Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowe…

What about FFL? Can FFL entities keep data about gun trade and share it with third parties?

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#117

Post by mindcrime » Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

zarathustraa wrote: post #113

mindcrime wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you advertise that your tech is suitable for lead sourcing We don't. The line you quoted above is from my LinkedIn profile where it's describing my responsibilities as founder of the company. So, of course, part of what I do is prospecting and identifying leads. All companies do that, I don't think anything we do falls into the "nefarious" range. We aren't using retargeting or buying user information from data…

I apologize for reading the linkedin line in the wrong key.

No worries. I understand where you're coming from. And believe me, I've spent a not inconsiderable amount of time thinking about these issues. I tend to look at raw technology as being "ethically neutral" but it does bother me that there doesn't seem to be any way to truly ensure that tech is only used for noble / beneficial ends. But I don't feel like I can let that stop me from working on tech in general... the only other alternative seems to be to turn Amish or something. And somehow I'm not quite comfortable with that.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#118

Post by jonathankoren » Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

strooper wrote: post #22

> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing t…

While yes the final decision lies with someone else, I am very uncomfortable with this idea that the creators of these tools are completely blameless.

Tools are abused all the time, but not every tool is as destructive and likely to be abused. The use and abuse should be considered, and mitigation undertaken as part of any basic engineering ethics standard.

Tools aren’t natural, and certainly not these tools. They were made very intentionally. To use an extreme example, you don’t get to make the proverbial genetically targeted bioweapon, and the throw up your hands when it’s used and say, “Hey I’m blameless. I just made the thing.” Well, the outcome of its use, and it’s appeal to bad actors is obvious, it wouldn’t have existed if you didn’t build it.

But let’s look at Palantir in particular. It’s not just software, it also a consultancy via its “forward deployed engineers”. This means that it’s not just a value neutral tool, but actively aiding customers to do whatever.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#119

Post by jonathankoren » Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #93

anigbrowl wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact is that human rights violations and child abuse are happening now. Here is one recent example from DHS' own inspector-general: https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2019-07/O... Take a look at the pictures and pretend it's your family members. Still proud?

Palantir doesn't build holding cells. They've worked with the government for many years, long prior to this recent and ongoing debacle. I'm ashamed of DHS for providing unhealthy facilities, and I'll agitate for their rapid improvement. Family separation was quickly curtailed after the initial public outcry, and I expect a similar result here. None of this would diminish my goodwill towards Palantir for improving gov…

They don’t build the cells. They just help fill them.

If you’re helping put people into inhumane conditions, you’re at the very least an accessory to these crimes.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#120

Post by jonathankoren » Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 6:41 PM UTC

49531 wrote: post #47

m-p-3 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still, if someone crafts a knife and someone uses it to hurt another I'll blame the user, not the crafter.

There is a difference between crafting a knife and crafting a tool specifically for harmful purposes. The IBM engineers who helped Germany facilitate the holocaust are probably a bit more involved in evil than a knife crafter.

Hell. They forward deployed engineers (just like Palantir!)

> Particularly powerful are the newly-released copies of the IBM concentration camp codes. IBM maintained a customer site, known as the Hollerith Department, in virtually every concentration camp to sort or process punch cards and track prisoners.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691