Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

vice.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 164 posts

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#91

Post by count »

homonculus1 wrote: post #87
count wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that internally lots of stats/etc are posted around things like cyber attacks, where a 'port scan' is counted as 65k different attacks (all of the tcp ports getting a 'malicious' SYN == an attack). It's the functional equivalent of calling satellite overflights attacks, every time they fly by. 'We are under constant attack!' also helps the internal justification of working for/with agencies like that.

It doesn't seem to pass the smell test, does it? Presumably these attacks would be thwarted by raiding and arresting the conspirators... the feds might be able to snuff out a story that so-and-so was plotting to assassinate the president, but I don't think they'd be able to hide it if they were kicking in that many doors on a daily basis. That would get out eventually if only through rumor and word of mouth. Maybe th…

Being generous: The CIA isn't generally in the business of arresting people. They're a little more hands on in the dark corners of the world, traditionally.

Maybe they are simply leaning on financiers via other means, and preventing attacks by re-rerouting or intercepting cash.

Remember: they are very explicitly not law enforcement. Read 'The Black Banners' by Ali Soufan of the FBI to get a good sense of how not-law-enforcement the CIA is.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#92

Post by refurb »

rsweeney21 wrote: post #59

I'm mixed on this. I hired a former CIA analyst a few years ago. Part of his job at the CIA was to contribute to the daily briefings provided to president Obama. I asked him how he felt about the ethics of spying on American citizens. He said I wouldn't believe the number of threats that were prevented on a daily basis because of the tools and data they have access to. He said they don't share the information about w…

That does make sense, but the problem is it's not provable. Citizens just have to take the gov'ts word that all of this spying is keeping us safe. That's just ripe for abuse.

And also keep in mind that the people "preventing" these threats have a vested interested in making these "threats" sound as sinister as possible. It's similar to drug busts by cops - if they seize a kilo of cocaine, they don't say they took "$10,000 worth of drugs off the street", they say they took "$200,000 worth of drugs off the street", by making the most favorable calculation (selling individual grams at an inflated price).

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#93

Post by _iyig »

anigbrowl wrote: post #68
_iyig wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American citizen who is happy to see the law enforced. I don't live in Atherton or Palo Alto. There were two Central American gang-related shootings near my family's home last week; there were two MS-13 murders in the broader area earlier this year. I grew up here, and it didn't used to be like this. I want to see those who come here illegally, or who have been denied refugee status as the result of due proces…

The fact is that human rights violations and child abuse are happening now. Here is one recent example from DHS' own inspector-general: https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2019-07/O... Take a look at the pictures and pretend it's your family members. Still proud?

Palantir doesn't build holding cells. They've worked with the government for many years, long prior to this recent and ongoing debacle. I'm ashamed of DHS for providing unhealthy facilities, and I'll agitate for their rapid improvement. Family separation was quickly curtailed after the initial public outcry, and I expect a similar result here. None of this would diminish my goodwill towards Palantir for improving government I.T. systems.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#94

Post by anigbrowl »

_iyig wrote: post #58
imglorp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying attention to world history, for one. For another, I've personally seen my work get turned from a human safety product in one market into a direct instrument of human oppression in another market. Lots of tech is just a tool, which can be used for good or evil. The thing is, once good people see what is possible, it provides them an easy route to doing evil which they might not have had before.

I'm sorry to hear about your personal experience; I've been in a similar situation myself, related to voice assistant technology. However, I don't think either of our experiences necessarily imply that Palantir is evil. For example: Typewriters can be turned to evil. IBM showed this to the world with their WWII-era Nazi collaboration. That doesn't mean the world should abandon typewriters, or that no self-respecting…

Typewriters can be turned to evil. IBM showed this to the world with their WWII-era Nazi collaboration. That doesn't mean the world should abandon typewriters, or that no self-respecting engineer should work on typewriters, or that they would be necessarily used for evil by the law-enforcement arm of a democratic society.

IBM's relationship with the Third Reich was not based on the mere supply of typewriters; such a suggestion reduces your credibility on this topic to zero.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#95

Post by sansnomme »

deogeo wrote: post #83
rsweeney21 wrote: post #59

I'm mixed on this. I hired a former CIA analyst a few years ago. Part of his job at the CIA was to contribute to the daily briefings provided to president Obama. I asked him how he felt about the ethics of spying on American citizens. He said I wouldn't believe the number of threats that were prevented on a daily basis because of the tools and data they have access to. He said they don't share the information about w…

Think how many more attacks could be prevented if everyone had to wear an ankle monitor at all times.

Nah, smartphones have much better data logging especially with ML sensor fusion.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#96

Post by zarathustraa »

mindcrime wrote: post #84
zarathustraa wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's making it worse until something bad happens to someone you value. If Obama's daughters (or Trump's if you are on the other side) were killed in some horrific racist incident, wouldn't you approve the usage of such software if it was the only hope of getting the perpetrator? Or would you say "as much as I am saddened, I cannot approve such massive invasion of privacy".

Or would you say "as much as I am saddened, I cannot approve such massive invasion of privacy". Yes, I would take that stance every time, and twice on Sunday.

Funny, you seem to be working on systems very similar to Palantir (twitter handle on HN profile):

https://twitter.com/FogbeamLabs/status/1086757478312960002

What safeguards do you have in place to make sure that personally identifiable information of customers that companies using your tech have is not aggregated and pulled together for nefarious use? For example very targeted lead sourcing or targeted advertisement?

Oh, none, you actually advertise that you are mining all the databases for:

> Prospect and identify leads

But I understand that it can be hard to see certain things when your income depends on you not seeing them.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#97

Post by akiselev »

lisper wrote: post #80
rsweeney21 wrote: post #59

I'm mixed on this. I hired a former CIA analyst a few years ago. Part of his job at the CIA was to contribute to the daily briefings provided to president Obama. I asked him how he felt about the ethics of spying on American citizens. He said I wouldn't believe the number of threats that were prevented on a daily basis because of the tools and data they have access to. He said they don't share the information about w…

> it also seemed like something big brother would say to get me to give up freedoms Or to keep up morale at the agency. The one indisputable fact is that actual attacks are very rare. So there are only two possibilities: 1. Law enforcement is exceptionally effective at stopping them, or 2. There are very few attempted attacks to begin with. Here's a data point to help you decide which of these is more likely: https:/…

I don't think a datapoint about a bunch of airport security guards paid minimum wage with minimal training is relevant to the intelligence community.

At least I hope not.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#98

Post by justforyou »

_iyig wrote: post #39
strooper wrote: post #22

> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing t…

I'm an American citizen who is happy to see the law enforced. I don't live in Atherton or Palo Alto. There were two Central American gang-related shootings near my family's home last week; there were two MS-13 murders in the broader area earlier this year. I grew up here, and it didn't used to be like this. I want to see those who come here illegally, or who have been denied refugee status as the result of due proces…

What specific region are you talking about?

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#99

Post by _iyig »

elbasti wrote: post #69
_iyig wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American citizen who is happy to see the law enforced. I don't live in Atherton or Palo Alto. There were two Central American gang-related shootings near my family's home last week; there were two MS-13 murders in the broader area earlier this year. I grew up here, and it didn't used to be like this. I want to see those who come here illegally, or who have been denied refugee status as the result of due proces…

I believe a [citation needed] is required for the claim that US immigration policy is "internationally conventional". There is of course enormous variance in how countries handle immigration, but the ethical and conventional policy could be summarized as: 1. Border enforcement. Ie, try to prevent people from entering illegally 2. Tolerance for those who are illegally present (2) Means that a person who emigrated ille…

Mexico is deporting illegal migrants at the highest rate since 2006, and has deployed the military on their southern border:

https://www.teledoce.com/telemundo/internacionales/mexico-au...

The E.U. tightened their border control policies after a wave of terrorist attacks and upsurge in far-right political activity. We ran the experiment, and it turns out that's what happens when you let in millions of people with little job skills from cultures that broadly have, among other things, very regressive views on women's civil rights.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#100

Post by akiselev »

_iyig wrote: post #63
rjurney wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is most people that want undocumented immigrants deported don't actually want them deported. They just want them to be an underclass available for cheap labor and keep their mouths shut. Undocumented workers are essential to the economy and the same people that hate them hire them. If you want rule of law, provide work permits and a path to citizenship. Immigrants of all variety aren't going away. We need…

They are essential to the economy because American employers can pay below-market wages for back-breaking labor. I'd prefer to make such practices illegal, rather than continually subjecting undocumented immigrants to awful working conditions with no healthcare or legal recourse in cases of abuse. If a concerted effort was made to improve the lives of such workers, I think you'd be surprised how quickly Americans wou…

I think you'd be surprised how fast the companies hiring all those workers would go bankrupt, leaving the United States without an agricultural industry (which is as critical to national security as the rule of law).

Americans are, on the whole, unwilling to pay the prices required to provide people with a living wage and proper labor protections.

Post reply on HN