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No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

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Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#361

Post by Shaanie »

Madzen1 wrote: post #302
quakenul wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting in touch with two foreign languages in school is not uncommon, but speaking up to four (including your mother tongue) with any sort of sophistication definitely is not normal, at least in western Europe.

Not uncommon in Scandinavia, if you know one of the languages you can learn the other easily. Some people from Finland have swedish and finnish as their mother tounge, the german most likely came from upper secondary school, together with english.

As a Swede I have little issue understanding Norwegian, but I would absolutely not claim I speak it. Yes, the languages are similar enough that we can understand each other, but no Scandinavian will be able to speak another Scandinavian language without practice as there are many differences.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#362

Post by duchenne »

jacquesm wrote: post #296
thomasfl wrote: post #283

One of the researchers, Tuomas Sundholm, has a real badass CV. Former pilot in the Finnish airforce. Finnish windsurfer champion. Snowboarder. Professor at Carnegie Mellon. Speaks four european languages, including swedish. And now at the age of 51, he has created the best AI powered poker bot. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sandholm/cv.pdf

Not to belittle the man's other achievements but speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe, except when you're from the UK.

A quick google search seems to contradict your statement: https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/number-of...

Average number of languages spoken: France: 1.8 , Germany: 2.0 , Spain: 1.7 , Portugal: 1.6 , Italy: 1.8 , Greece: 1.8 , Poland: 1.8 , Sweden: 2.5 , Finland: 2.6 , UK: 1.6

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#363

Post by objectivetruth »

stronglikedan wrote: post #358
jfengel wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I am now going to bang my head into a wall.

Nothing to do with being American, since you're afforded the luxury to learn other languages for free through public schooling. If anything, bang your head because you chose not to.

Eh, not for many, many Americans. My school, and most of the schools in my county, offered only Spanish and my understanding is that four years of it still wouldn't qualify a person for AP credit.

It's hard to find more data beyond my anecdata -- an EdWeek article I found reported that less than 50% of schools report world language enrollment data.

Also, the Europeans who learn three or four languages in school also have the luxury to learn those languages for free* through public schooling, so I'm not sure I understand your point.

I am sure that your implication that every American kid can get a quality free foreign language skill in school is false: just like almost every single other educational outcome in the US, it's generally great in the good (wealthy, suburban) schools and terrible in the bad (poor, rural or urban) schools.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#364

Post by xxs »

jfengel wrote: post #354
loup-vaillant wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe Northern Europe, maybe. French people for instance tend to suck at foreign languages. We rarely go beyond 3 languages (French, English, then German or Spanish. The last two are often forgotten after school.) I suspect Spain and Italy are similar.

As an American, I am now going to bang my head into a wall.

>into a wall.

I thought it was somewhat delayed, not paid, yet.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#365

Post by Cybiote »

b_tterc_p wrote: post #333
Cybiote wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adaptability is certainly not necessary (almost by definition) if you're playing a near to equilibrium strategy but adaptability is a useful skill to have in a general non-stationary world. That said, for this bot, I wouldn't say it's playing completely independent of the other players's interior state. Pluribus must infer its opponents strategy profile and according to the paper, maintains a distribution over possib…

> Pluribus must infer its opponents strategy profile This is what interests me. It doesn’t do this. In fact because it played against itself only, it is should be assumed that the only strategy profile it considers is its own.

You're right that it uses itself as a prototype for decisions but the fact that it also maintains a probability distribution over possible hole cards and that it updates according to observed actions is already richer than the local decision only approach taking most all other bots. This is sort of forced by the simplicity of poker's action space combined with the large search space and imperfect information. Here, the simplicity ends up making things more difficult! They also use multiple play styles as "continuation strategies" so it's a bit more robust. And to be fair, I suspect much of human play does use themselves and experience as a substitute too.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#366

Post by bryanrasmussen »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #301
jacquesm wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to belittle the man's other achievements but speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe, except when you're from the UK.

> speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe Northern Europe, maybe. French people for instance tend to suck at foreign languages. We rarely go beyond 3 languages (French, English, then German or Spanish. The last two are often forgotten after school.) I suspect Spain and Italy are similar.

Italy 1.8 seems accurate, in my experience most Italians know only Italian, although younger generations are likely to know a bit of English.

The surprising thing for me is Germany having 2. Seems unlikely.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#367

Post by bcassedy »

dbancajas wrote: post #228
bcassedy wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dumb money has been drying up for years. There have been bots taking millions of dollars out of games for more than a decade. Even bots from 10 years ago were sophisticated enough to win money at mid-stakes poker (up to $2000 buy in 6max no limit games)

proof? I dont' believe this. 2K buy-in has a lot of regs that are pretty good overall in cash games. Plus Pokerstars/FT has a pretty good anti-bot policy. if you get caught bye bye to the $.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/153/high-stakes-pl-omaha/...

There are a bunch of such threads over the years where through statistical analysis, users have identified groups of dozens of bots.

While years ago many of the pros could theoretically beat these bots, it may not have been by enough of a factor to overcome the rake. Of course if the bots are practicing any game selection they can take money out of the economy even if they can't beat pros.

Anti-bot measures is an arms race and the sites aren't always ahead of the game.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#368

Post by bryanrasmussen »

nso wrote: post #355
diggan wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe Clearly we have different experiences (swedish person living in spain currently) but I haven't met that many people who speak four languages and are from a european country (but have yet to been in eastern europe). That finns speak swedish is a special case though, as AFAIK, they learn swedish in school and being finn-swedish is a thing too.

Being Swedish I bet you at minimum can understand and communicate proficiently with speakers and writers of Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and English. Probably you learned either Spanish, French, or German in school as well? Nordic countries are a special case. Norden er et spesielt tilfelle. Norden är ett speciellt fall. Norden er et specielt tilfælde.

Nobody can communicate proficiently with the Danes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#369

Post by icelancer »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #315
icelancer wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is falsifiable by any number of cases, but Isaac Haxton spurning PokerStars is probably one of the best examples so others see your comment is not universally applicable. https://upswingpoker.com/isaac-haxton-pokerstars-partypoker/

>However, Haxton isn’t accepting PokerStars’ olive branch as he was among the victims defrauded by the online giant for millions of dollars. I'm not sure the really provides strong opposition to the GP's claim.

PokerStars offered to make him - and him alone - whole through sponsorship dollars. Haxton used to be their lead pro and is widely considered one of the very best players in the world.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#370

Post by darse »

noambrown wrote: post #6

I'm one of the authors of the bot, AMA

A hearty congratulations, Noam, on finishing another chapter of the story i opened in the early 1990s...

Another person asked "What took you so long?", and i had the same question. :) I really thought this milestone would be achieved fairly soon after i left the field in 2007. However, breakthroughs require a researcher with the right amount of reflectiveness, insight, and determination.

Well done.

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