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No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

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Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#291

Post by sakarisson »

thomasfl wrote: post #283

One of the researchers, Tuomas Sundholm, has a real badass CV. Former pilot in the Finnish airforce. Finnish windsurfer champion. Snowboarder. Professor at Carnegie Mellon. Speaks four european languages, including swedish. And now at the age of 51, he has created the best AI powered poker bot. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sandholm/cv.pdf

> Speaks four european languages, including swedish.

Judging by his name, I'd assume Swedish is his first language, so that particular aspect isn't that surprising to me

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#292

Post by Phillipharryt »

tialaramex wrote: post #282
b_tterc_p wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does bluff, but that’s not my point. My issue is that it bluffs without consideration of its opponent. High level strategic play of most games is about adapting to your opponents play. This bot does not do that. It is secretly a giant lookup table of game state to response. In the case of poker, it appears that adaptability is not as good as pure mathematical optimization. Humans can adapt their strategy, but it’s…

> High level strategic play of most games is about adapting to your opponents play. Is this true in any meaningful sense? For heavily studied games there's usually a theoretically optimal play independent of the opponent's interior state, this is obviously true for all the "Solved" games, which includes the simpler Heads Up Limit Hold 'Em poker (solved by Alberta's Cepheus project) but it seem pretty clearly true for…

Well in online poker high level players make great use of player tagging, taking notes about players they have played before and what they've done in important hands or their patterns. Software exists to track how opponents behave in any given situation, and if it pops up again you use that.

I would think if professional players are utilising this information, a bot could benefit from it. I don't see how they would ever lose out from this information, even if it only uses situations where the opponent has a history of 100% of the time responding a certain way.

I am impressed by the bot but I have to laugh a bit because years ago I joked with a friend about making an "amnesiac bot" that had no recollection of previous hands, it seemed so useless we obviously didn't make it, we've evidently been proven wrong. (pointless tangent there)

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#294

Post by Tenoke »

DeathArrow wrote: post #274

I wonder what would be the impact of using Counterfactual Regret Minimization instead of training a neural network based on hands played by real players? Whys is using CFR better than training based on real data?

It's not necesserily better but with CFR you can learn beyond what humans have learned, but on the other hand you dont learn their usual mistakes to more easily exploit them. Also in this approach you need CRM since at every point you are checking what would've happened if you picked something else, which is just impossible with a fixed dataset.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#295

Post by xxs »

thomasfl wrote: post #283

One of the researchers, Tuomas Sundholm, has a real badass CV. Former pilot in the Finnish airforce. Finnish windsurfer champion. Snowboarder. Professor at Carnegie Mellon. Speaks four european languages, including swedish. And now at the age of 51, he has created the best AI powered poker bot. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sandholm/cv.pdf

Finland has two official languages - Swedish and Finnish, his name suggests he is Swedish to begin with.

It's not uncommon to speak four languages (often C2 in couple of them) in the North Europe, esp. the Baltic region.

Like mentioned by sibling (sakarisson), that particular part is not impressive, the rest - sure

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#296

Post by jacquesm »

thomasfl wrote: post #283

One of the researchers, Tuomas Sundholm, has a real badass CV. Former pilot in the Finnish airforce. Finnish windsurfer champion. Snowboarder. Professor at Carnegie Mellon. Speaks four european languages, including swedish. And now at the age of 51, he has created the best AI powered poker bot. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sandholm/cv.pdf

Not to belittle the man's other achievements but speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe, except when you're from the UK.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#297

Post by Traster »

csa wrote: post #279
gexla wrote: post #273

It's easy to "take away" too much information from this. The focus is that an AI poker bot "did this" and not get too much into other adjacent subjects. But what's the fun in that? 10,000 hands in an interesting number. If you search the poker forums, you'll see this is the number you'll see people throw out there for how many hands you need to see before you can analyze your play. You then make adjustments and see a…

You clearly didn’t read the additional links they posted. They mentioned why they chose 10k (AIVAT), and it goes far beyond any of the variables you mentioned. For any number of hands, my money is on the bot.

That really doesn't address the point that was raised. It's not that the bot wins through luck and that 10k is too small a sample, it's that a good professional poker player isn't good over 10k hands, they're good over 5 years.

Any good player will have their play analyzed and responded to, so there's a feedback loop there - any good player will have their play analyzed, exploited and will have to re-adjust their strategy to respond to exploitative play. The question is: How does the AI strategy adapt over time to players who know the hand history of the AI strategy. That's an extremely important part of being a top level player. To give you an example - if you watch Daniel Negreanu's vlog about his time at the WSOP he actively talks about changing his strategy in response to his analysis of different players' profiles. This is especially important in Sit & Go where at high stakes you'll have regular grinders who build up reputations - less so in tournaments where you're less likely to meet any given player.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#298

Post by diggan »

jacquesm wrote: post #296
thomasfl wrote: post #283

One of the researchers, Tuomas Sundholm, has a real badass CV. Former pilot in the Finnish airforce. Finnish windsurfer champion. Snowboarder. Professor at Carnegie Mellon. Speaks four european languages, including swedish. And now at the age of 51, he has created the best AI powered poker bot. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sandholm/cv.pdf

Not to belittle the man's other achievements but speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe, except when you're from the UK.

> speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe

Clearly we have different experiences (swedish person living in spain currently) but I haven't met that many people who speak four languages and are from a european country (but have yet to been in eastern europe).

That finns speak swedish is a special case though, as AFAIK, they learn swedish in school and being finn-swedish is a thing too.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#299

Post by quakenul »

jacquesm wrote: post #296
thomasfl wrote: post #283

One of the researchers, Tuomas Sundholm, has a real badass CV. Former pilot in the Finnish airforce. Finnish windsurfer champion. Snowboarder. Professor at Carnegie Mellon. Speaks four european languages, including swedish. And now at the age of 51, he has created the best AI powered poker bot. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sandholm/cv.pdf

Not to belittle the man's other achievements but speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe, except when you're from the UK.

Getting in touch with two foreign languages in school is not uncommon, but speaking up to four (including your mother tongue) with any sort of sophistication definitely is not normal, at least in western Europe.
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