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No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

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Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#241

Post by hajile »

noambrown wrote: post #201
slg wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making "quite a bit of money" still leaves open the possibility that the AI is leaving a lot of money on the table by not taking opponents into consideration. Also I would be curious to see how it performs against people that aren't "elite human pros". Would this AI win at a higher rate in a game against average recreational players compared to the rate a pro would win? Lastly it is also possible that the pros simply…

I think the bot would make a lot of money playing against average recreational players, but it's absolutely true that if you can exploit bad players' weaknesses, then you can make more money than what the bot would earn. We played 10,000 hands over 12 days in the 5 humans + 1 AI experiment. That's quite a long time, and there's no indication that they even began to uncover any weaknesses in that time period. So I'm f…

There was an interesting IRL poker game a few years ago. The player who was running behind started going all in on every hand without even looking at their hand (with a huge amount of success).

Out of curiosity, how does a bot deal with oddities things like this?

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#242

Post by noambrown »

abstract7 wrote: post #210
noambrown wrote: post #6

I'm one of the authors of the bot, AMA

How many games did the bot beat the same 5 players? And how many games were played?

We played 10,000 hands of poker in the 5 humans + 1 AI experiment. The number of hands won isn't a useful metric in poker. If you win only 10% of your hands and make $1,000 on those hands, while losing only $1 on the other 90% of hands, then you're a winning player. The bot won at a rate of 4.8 bb/100 ($4.8 per hand if the blinds are $50/$100). This is considered a large win rate by professionals.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#244

Post by slg »

noambrown wrote: post #201
slg wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making "quite a bit of money" still leaves open the possibility that the AI is leaving a lot of money on the table by not taking opponents into consideration. Also I would be curious to see how it performs against people that aren't "elite human pros". Would this AI win at a higher rate in a game against average recreational players compared to the rate a pro would win? Lastly it is also possible that the pros simply…

I think the bot would make a lot of money playing against average recreational players, but it's absolutely true that if you can exploit bad players' weaknesses, then you can make more money than what the bot would earn. We played 10,000 hands over 12 days in the 5 humans + 1 AI experiment. That's quite a long time, and there's no indication that they even began to uncover any weaknesses in that time period. So I'm f…

That 10,000 total hands number isn't particularly meaningful on the point of adaptability because the humans aren't sharing information with each other. The important number is how many hands each individual human played against the AI. Another question would be whether the pros knew which player was the AI? Because if they didn't, you are basically throwing a modified Turing Test against the pros before they can even begin to try to find tendencies in the AI. Predicting opponents is a huge part of how people play poker. If the AI plays unlike any human, pros are at huge disadvantage against an AI compared to how they would fair against a similarly skilled but more traditional human player.

None of this is meant to diminish what you all accomplished, I'm just highlighting areas of poker in which this AI would be less successful than humans even if it is more successful overall.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#245

Post by badfrog »

icelancer wrote: post #230
joaomacp wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It must be. It is way too hard to prevent humans from using an AI. Some chess services try to check if you're playing "too perfect", but in poker that's harder to do, and there's way more money on the line.

>> Some chess services try to check if you're playing "too perfect", but in poker that's harder to do, and there's way more money on the line. Not really. With perfect information you know the correct strict equity plays assuming normal opponents. This doesn't give you the ultimate answer, because a player's reads and inference about another player is definitely an input - especially at the highest level - but it is…

> a player's reads and inference about another player is definitely an input - especially at the highest level

I think player-dependent strategy is more important at lower levels because the players are much further away from what you call "normal opponents", so there's far more opportunity to exploit their mistakes.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#246

Post by soup10 »

MikeHolman wrote: post #187
chance_state wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Some chess services try to check if you're playing "too perfect" [...] That's interesting, could you share an example? Most of my search results are anecdotal Reddit threads about how many people cheat in online chess.

All the major online chess websites have anti-cheat mechanisms. They don't publish details of how they detect cheaters though, and I don't know how good they are. From what I've read, they work by comparing the player's moves against chess engines, and if the player is picking engine's choice too often in positions where there are multiple roughly equal moves, they get flagged.

Even so most people don't bother with standard games online since its way too easy to cheat by mirroring the game and basically undetectable if they are good enough to not play lines that look like "computerish" moves.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#247

Post by canistel »

baq wrote: post #76
noambrown wrote: post #6

I'm one of the authors of the bot, AMA

When do you solve bridge? :)

It is in a way disappointing that this question gets so little attention, and yet, it might be the most significant. If a bot can false-card - if it can discern the strategy that the opponents have in mind, and deliberately mislead them to its own advantage - we have a real world AI. However, skills of computer bridge programs remain at club level standards.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#248

Post by noambrown »

home_project123 wrote: post #112
noambrown wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some open-source code in this area, and hopefully there will be more going forward. Here's one example: https://github.com/EricSteinberger/Deep-CFR

a. Is CFR applicable in single player hidden-information games? (e.g. state is initially hidden, gradually revealed to the agent, but there is not adversary) b. How much more efficient is the improved search algorithm? the $150 number sounds like a couple of order of magnitudes..

a. There was this paper a couple years ago applying CFR to single-agent settings: https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.11424

b. It really depends on the game and the situation. It can be several orders of magnitude in six-player poker. In other games, it can be even more.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#249

Post by tuesdayrain »

oppiz wrote: post #191
tempestn wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty easy for good players to recognize other good players. And since the house takes such a large cut, the only way for pro players to have positive expected value online is to seek out games with poor players. So even if they couldn't recognize the bots as such, they would see them as tough players and avoid them. That said, I suppose it would be possible for the bots to become so prevalent that all this sor…

It's my understanding the big sites have some pretty sophisticated bot detection systems, so in theory a bot that would be successful at beating online poker couldn't be a huge winner, it'd presumably raise too many red flags. However, if it were a near break-even player, with dozens, if not hundreds, of instances running at any given time, it's going to slowly grind out a substantial figure. You'd also have to take…

>You'd also have to take into account that the sites are monitoring things like reaction times to bets and raises, hand range consistency, etc.

You might be surprised by the lengths people go to in order to bypass bot-detection just for ordinary games. All of the things you mentioned are pretty standard. Considering there is serious money on the line here, I am positive that plenty of poker bots will be virtually indistinguishable from professional players, if they aren't already.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#250

Post by unityByFreedom »

noambrown wrote: post #51
andr3w321 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any chance of the code being released or a cepheus style answer key being provided? http://poker.srv.ualberta.ca/strategy

I don't think the poker world would be happy with us if we did that. Heads-up limit hold'em isn't really played professionally anymore, but six-player no-limit hold'em is very popular.

Why not run the bot, post its proceeds transparently online, and donate everything to charity?

By not releasing it, you're ensuring a higher concentration of money in the hands of a few, IMO.

Anyone with access to this source code could run a bot themselves, or employ someone to do so.

Plus, if you've accomplished this, no doubt someone can replicate it.

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