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Solitary Jailhouse Lawyer Argues His Way Out of Prison

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Re: Solitary Jailhouse Lawyer Argues His Way Out of Prison

#51

Post by Locke1689 »

shrikant wrote: post #31
Locke1689 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation?

In general, I couldn't say. (Also, a citation showing that the people who are ostensibly meant to uphold the law are in fact not playing fair and doing everything they can avoid justice..? What? How would that work) But a nice example would be this very case - even after the case was basically retro-actively thrown out, the prosecutor's office still maintain everything was kosher. (They still maintain that Collins is…

Even if there is corruption you have no data which says that is the primary actor in this phenomenon.

Re: Solitary Jailhouse Lawyer Argues His Way Out of Prison

#53

Post by philwelch »

yxhuvud wrote: post #35
joe_the_user wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I reading the story, that part was just screaming at me. In my limited knowledge of the law, the guy got incredibly lucky in having illegally gain evidence accepted in a court of law (from a defendant). It's mind blowing to think about being in a situation where the only way to get justice is to break the law. It sounds good in action movie but in real life, it's appalling...

Being a foreigner, it's mind blowing that how evidence is procured matter. Evidence is evidence. If there were illegal actions while collecting it, then those actions should be prosecuted, but evidence is still evidence and should be used.

I love anti-American criticism. Sure, most of the time, foreigners complain that we don't respect people's rights enough. But some of the time, they complain that we respect people's rights too much.

The US has abnormally strong civil liberties as far as interacting with your local police department goes, paired with a federal government that does everything they think they can get away with when it comes to kidnapping foreigners or feeling you up at the airport. It's a very strange system filled with contradictions.

EDIT: Anti-American was probably too strong a term for it. My point was just that it's interesting how the American government is criticized on both accounts.

Re: Solitary Jailhouse Lawyer Argues His Way Out of Prison

#54

Post by philwelch »

rdl wrote: post #39

This is one of many reasons I oppose capital punishment. It is odd that conservatives, who claim government is often the problem, not the solution, would entrust the state with the power of life and death.

Everyone sentenced to death is tried and convicted before a jury. I see no contradiction between trusting juries and distrusting unelected federal bureaucrats.

Re: Solitary Jailhouse Lawyer Argues His Way Out of Prison

#55

Post by joe_the_user »

yxhuvud wrote: post #35
joe_the_user wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I reading the story, that part was just screaming at me. In my limited knowledge of the law, the guy got incredibly lucky in having illegally gain evidence accepted in a court of law (from a defendant). It's mind blowing to think about being in a situation where the only way to get justice is to break the law. It sounds good in action movie but in real life, it's appalling...

Being a foreigner, it's mind blowing that how evidence is procured matter. Evidence is evidence. If there were illegal actions while collecting it, then those actions should be prosecuted, but evidence is still evidence and should be used.

On the other side, this is a actually very good thing.

If cops aren't allowed to use any evidence they gather illegally, it puts a damper on their enthusiasm for such illegality.

Re: Solitary Jailhouse Lawyer Argues His Way Out of Prison

#56

Post by joe_the_user »

philwelch wrote: post #53
yxhuvud wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a foreigner, it's mind blowing that how evidence is procured matter. Evidence is evidence. If there were illegal actions while collecting it, then those actions should be prosecuted, but evidence is still evidence and should be used.

I love anti-American criticism. Sure, most of the time, foreigners complain that we don't respect people's rights enough. But some of the time, they complain that we respect people's rights too much . The US has abnormally strong civil liberties as far as interacting with your local police department goes, paired with a federal government that does everything they think they can get away with when it comes to kidnapp…

I can't see how the GP is anti-American.

Being "mind-blowing" is good thing, at least that's what I remember from Steve Jobs.

Re: Solitary Jailhouse Lawyer Argues His Way Out of Prison

#57

Post by joe_the_user »

eru wrote: post #37
yxhuvud wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a foreigner, it's mind blowing that how evidence is procured matter. Evidence is evidence. If there were illegal actions while collecting it, then those actions should be prosecuted, but evidence is still evidence and should be used.

As far as I know the legal system, in say, Germany doesn't recognize illegally gained evidence either.

The story is slightly different in each country.

"In Germany, statutory law mandates exclusion of statements obtained from suspects or witnesses by force, deception, hypnosis, or similar illicit methods of interrogation" http://law.jrank.org/pages/899/Criminal-Procedure-Comparativ...

But

"Because deterrence of police misconduct is not the rationale for exclusion of evidence, German courts tend to admit evidence obtained through illegal searches "http://law.jrank.org/pages/899/Criminal-Procedure-Comparativ...

Re: Solitary Jailhouse Lawyer Argues His Way Out of Prison

#58

Post by philwelch »

joe_the_user wrote: post #56
philwelch wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love anti-American criticism. Sure, most of the time, foreigners complain that we don't respect people's rights enough. But some of the time, they complain that we respect people's rights too much . The US has abnormally strong civil liberties as far as interacting with your local police department goes, paired with a federal government that does everything they think they can get away with when it comes to kidnapp…

I can't see how the GP is anti-American. Being "mind-blowing" is good thing, at least that's what I remember from Steve Jobs.

Anti-American was a poor way to put it--criticism of the American system of government would perhaps be more precise.

Re: Solitary Jailhouse Lawyer Argues His Way Out of Prison

#59

Post by dkarl »

jarin wrote: post #40
yxhuvud wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a foreigner, it's mind blowing that how evidence is procured matter. Evidence is evidence. If there were illegal actions while collecting it, then those actions should be prosecuted, but evidence is still evidence and should be used.

In the US, we (as a collective) hold sacrosanct the rights of a person against illegal searches and self-incrimination, as well as the 'innocent until proven guilty' doctrine. The idea is that it's better to let a criminal go than to convict an innocent person. Disallowing illegally obtained evidence also has the effect of discouraging the police from illegally obtaining evidence in the first place and reducing oppor…

Disallowing illegally obtained evidence also has the effect of discouraging the police from illegally obtaining evidence in the first place

Exactly, and arguably it's the only effective deterrent, because courts will be very lenient towards law enforcement officers doing their job, simply out of pragmatism. Law enforcement officers don't all have a precise understanding of the law, there are gray areas in the law anyway, and on top of that, the law is constantly evolving. Prosecuting police officers for illegal searches would be harmful, impractical, and _extremely_ unpopular, so the use of illegal searches and evidence obtained from them would become routine if that were the only deterrent.

Re: Solitary Jailhouse Lawyer Argues His Way Out of Prison

#60

Post by joe_the_user »

philwelch wrote: post #54
rdl wrote: post #39

This is one of many reasons I oppose capital punishment. It is odd that conservatives, who claim government is often the problem, not the solution, would entrust the state with the power of life and death.

Everyone sentenced to death is tried and convicted before a jury. I see no contradiction between trusting juries and distrusting unelected federal bureaucrats.

I think the article shows strong a connection between untrustworthy officials and unreliable jury trials.

In the case, officials effectively coerced at least three different people into testifying against the defendant and then lied about their behavior.

Jurors aren't psychic. They have to assume that prosecutors aren't lying and coercing witnesses. So unreliable officials will give you unreliable jury trials.

And making an irrevocable decision based on such an unreliable trial system clearly has some problems even every single juror is the most honest, upstanding citizen you can find.

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