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Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

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Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#61

Post by [deleted] »

harry8 wrote: post #29
robotbikes wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Intel chose minix to run their often despised management engine, so their engineers saw some benefit there to the microkernel architecture. Google is putting at least nomimal developer resources into Fuschia. And the L4 microkernel and derivatives displayed that microkernels aren't doomed to be slow. I think that Linux is probably going to be the dominant free software kernel for quite some time especially since…

I've worked on l4 fwiw. Show me those benefits on the wild. Intel's use of Minix, Qualcomm's use of l4 aren't showing me those benefits yet. If that's changed and they have I really do want to see it. Pointing out i haven't yet shouldn't be a sin, it should be quick to prove me wrong with some reasonable links with production ready more secure, more robust OSes. I'd pay performance for security and reliability in man…

[deleted]

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#62

Post by ken »

harry8 wrote: post #18
robotbikes wrote: post #12

I think that it is exciting that people are still working on Hurd and there is a new release synced with Buster. I think there is latent potential in microkernels and that we may actually be at in position to exploit some of the benefits such as heightened security and stability. While at the same time the performance cost of context switching could be reduced due to the higher number of cores on modern chips (especi…

Well I've been hearing about those benefits for at least 20 years. None yet actually sighted in the wild. Any attempted explanations from the microkernel religious zealots has been thoroughly unconvincing (because mach is slow, so?). Maybe you're right, I'd love to see it if you are. But while prior performance is no guarantee of the future, as they say in the funds management adverts, a pattern of repeated failure i…

You may also recall hearing about the benefits of GC for the 40 or so years before it became mainstream (because GC is slow, right?).

When advantages exist, they will eventually be exploited. It may take new research (better algorithms), new hardware (faster processors), or a new context (internet security), and those take time, but the original reasons for inventing the technology don't expire. As far as application of technology goes, a couple decades is not very long at all.

Nearly every computing technology I use today was loudly rejected by the mainstream, right up until it wasn't. Being unpopular seems to have no impact on the eventual success of computing technology, if it's a good idea.

When you have to resort to name-calling ("religious zealots") to explain why you won't look at actual advantages in computing, it makes me even more convinced that it's the correct approach, and will eventually win out.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#63

Post by nameismypw »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #2

I'm curious, but why are people still spending time and resources on Hurd? Is it curiosity or is there some use case for Hurd that I'm not aware of? Thanks.

Hurd is part of the GNU system; it's the intended kernel for the GNU userspace. Linux has been used as an intermediary because Hurd isn't ready for widespread use. But the idea has always been that Hurd would replace Linux and create a GNU system that is entirely under the FSF.

Beyond the philosophical differences, another difference is that Hurd is a microkernel and Linux is monolithic. Hurd can be considered a research project for exploring microkernels. The most well-developed microkernels are not open source or free.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#64

Post by phkahler »

harry8 wrote: post #18
robotbikes wrote: post #12

I think that it is exciting that people are still working on Hurd and there is a new release synced with Buster. I think there is latent potential in microkernels and that we may actually be at in position to exploit some of the benefits such as heightened security and stability. While at the same time the performance cost of context switching could be reduced due to the higher number of cores on modern chips (especi…

Well I've been hearing about those benefits for at least 20 years. None yet actually sighted in the wild. Any attempted explanations from the microkernel religious zealots has been thoroughly unconvincing (because mach is slow, so?). Maybe you're right, I'd love to see it if you are. But while prior performance is no guarantee of the future, as they say in the funds management adverts, a pattern of repeated failure i…

Graphics drivers.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#66

Post by farisjarrah »

153791098c wrote: post #59
TallGuyShort wrote: post #50

Does the Hurd team go around lecturing people who call it "Hurd" about how it's actually "GNU"/Hurd, how Hurd is the kernel and that's only one part, or is that only when the kernel wasn't their idea?

Hurd is a GNU project so it doesn't even really need a second mention, it only needs that mention because there is a competing kernel (Linux) that is used with the system. Otherwise it's just known as the GNU system. The kernel is pretty irrelevant for most users, we don't call it Android/Linux or Windows/NT for a reason. A kernel is not an operating system. Calling the whole OS Linux is both inaccurate and does not…

You're argument holds water, but the problem is when we start getting into OS's that actually don't ship any of the GNU userland. The classic example is Alpine Linux. Do we call that BusyBox/Linux? WSL 1 was a super weird anti-example where Microsoft skipped out on the Linux and shipped GNU stuff and still called it Linux. I think the colloquial naming convention became something like Kleenex or Google where we default to blowing our nose with (generic usage, not brand usage) "kleenex" with off-brand tissues or had our parents (generic usage, not brand usage) "google" something on Bing (as thats the default search engine of Windows).

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#67

Post by CameronNemo »

cultofmetatron wrote: post #56
jasonvorhe wrote: post #2

I'm curious, but why are people still spending time and resources on Hurd? Is it curiosity or is there some use case for Hurd that I'm not aware of? Thanks.

personally, I think people who are interested in hurd should take a look at redox. Its a new microkernel with similar design goals that uses rust as its implementation language.

The L4 ecosystem is much more mature. There are formally proven variants like seL4, and more widely used variants like wrmOS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family

I am excited to see how redox evolves, but unless they start writing, virtualizing, or porting drivers it is not much more than an experiment in how well Rust can handle OS programming.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#68

Post by duckerude »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #50

Does the Hurd team go around lecturing people who call it "Hurd" about how it's actually "GNU"/Hurd, how Hurd is the kernel and that's only one part, or is that only when the kernel wasn't their idea?

I don't believe I've ever seen someone refer to a full system as "Hurd". It probably doesn't come up much.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#69

Post by carapace »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #28
robotbikes wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Intel chose minix to run their often despised management engine, so their engineers saw some benefit there to the microkernel architecture. Google is putting at least nomimal developer resources into Fuschia. And the L4 microkernel and derivatives displayed that microkernels aren't doomed to be slow. I think that Linux is probably going to be the dominant free software kernel for quite some time especially since…

The L4 microkernel is currently being used by Apple in the secure enclave. See https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209632

And General Dynamics[1] bought OK Labs[2] in 2012, so presumably OKL4 or a descendant is in use there, eh? (In addition to "over 2 billion mobile phones".)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Kernel_Labs

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