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Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

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Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#51

Post by harry8 »

pjmlp wrote: post #47
harry8 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no. These are small os's, they're great and useful. There are others. My former, now banrkupt, employers claim L4 code I contributed to is running on over a billion phones. is uTron, eCos etc still dominant in that space? This is not showing the touted benefits of microkernel based, multiserver operating systems. This is not a secure operating system, this is not a robust operating system, this is not self-h…

To me it looks like you have some issues pending with L4 folks, that's alright. Meanwhile the industry will keep on slowly adopting micro-kernel inspired best practices, even if you don't see any benefit in doing so. Now hop to reading a bit more about Driver Kit on Catalina.

Again beautifully condescending but that isn't really terribly convincing. Good to see you go right ahead with personal assumptions rather than engage with content because this tells me you are unable to do so. This kind of zero engagement while going straight to various kinds of subtle or less so ad-homonym attacks annoy me. They are contemptuous in all aspects of life.

What is your precise claim here? I state there isn't one. But you did use the word "hop" so there's that.

Point me at the microkernel based OS, using any microkernel, l4 or any other, that exhibits the standard set of microkernel benefit claims around security, robustness, self-healing drivers and has launched a thousand academic papers and all the rest.

Please. Really. I would like to see it. Even if it doesn't exist yet I'd like to see it soon. Really.

Condescension is a piss-weak technique exhibited by those who know they don't have a viable argument. Reality is that which continues whether you believe it or not. I say nothing about what seems to me about you from what you've said here because that's just plain rude.

I'd love it if we got better operating systems by any technique. I'd be very happy if came via microkernels. But it hasn't and that is just reality. Again, show otherwise if you can. I've stopped following it, maybe it exists?

But good on you for going straight for the personal attack and making broad, unspecific claims while offering no substantiation. "industry will keep on keeping on. Good things are to be favoured."

DriverKit on OSX. I thought the days were gone when people claimed osx is a microkernel based OS because it has mach code in it. https://lwn.net/Articles/703785/ doesn't make linux a microkernel. Nor dpdk, openonload nor lwip. I don't recommend hopping.

At least 25 years and these are the straws we clutch.

Maybe ditch the bad attitude, the belittlement, the condescension and try to understand why we are here? What is the actual reason that we are here? Because in understanding that it might be solved and that might be useful. Pretending we're somewhere else and anyone who says otherwise is a heretic who must be silenced is a sure way of making no progress.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#52

Post by dang »

harry8 wrote: post #27
pjmlp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should take your eyes out of the UNIX clone desktop and look into OSes powering life critical embedded deployments.

Followed all your links and found precisely nothing. So many microkernel zealots, down vote storm ahoy. Must be annoying for those involved who are serious engineers and researchers.

Please don't break the site guidelines by posting flamebait or by going on about downvotes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#53

Post by dang »

harry8 wrote: post #51
pjmlp wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it looks like you have some issues pending with L4 folks, that's alright. Meanwhile the industry will keep on slowly adopting micro-kernel inspired best practices, even if you don't see any benefit in doing so. Now hop to reading a bit more about Driver Kit on Catalina.

Again beautifully condescending but that isn't really terribly convincing. Good to see you go right ahead with personal assumptions rather than engage with content because this tells me you are unable to do so. This kind of zero engagement while going straight to various kinds of subtle or less so ad-homonym attacks annoy me. They are contemptuous in all aspects of life. What is your precise claim here? I state there…

You started a flamewar and then perpetuated it. We ban accounts that do that. Would you mind reviewing the site guidelines and not doing that on HN? We're trying for better than that here. Also, we don't want this place to burn to a crisp, which is what eventually happens with flamewars.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#54

Post by harry8 »

dang wrote: post #52
harry8 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Followed all your links and found precisely nothing. So many microkernel zealots, down vote storm ahoy. Must be annoying for those involved who are serious engineers and researchers.

Please don't break the site guidelines by posting flamebait or by going on about downvotes. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

my applogies. I felt i responded with precisely the same tone as the comment's parent. Pointing out a lack of supporting evidence seems reasonable to me, but ymmv.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#55

Post by Intermernet »

harry8 wrote: post #51
pjmlp wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it looks like you have some issues pending with L4 folks, that's alright. Meanwhile the industry will keep on slowly adopting micro-kernel inspired best practices, even if you don't see any benefit in doing so. Now hop to reading a bit more about Driver Kit on Catalina.

Again beautifully condescending but that isn't really terribly convincing. Good to see you go right ahead with personal assumptions rather than engage with content because this tells me you are unable to do so. This kind of zero engagement while going straight to various kinds of subtle or less so ad-homonym attacks annoy me. They are contemptuous in all aspects of life. What is your precise claim here? I state there…

Take a deep breath and step back. I'd also give this advice to those you're arguing with.

I for one am receptive to what you're saying, but I'd prefer it without the put-downs.

This is a perfect example of an interesting debate that is being destroyed by personal attacks.

P.S. I've upvoted your comments to try and prevent them from being flagged / killed.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#56

Post by cultofmetatron »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #2

I'm curious, but why are people still spending time and resources on Hurd? Is it curiosity or is there some use case for Hurd that I'm not aware of? Thanks.

personally, I think people who are interested in hurd should take a look at redox. Its a new microkernel with similar design goals that uses rust as its implementation language.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#57

Post by harry8 »

dang wrote: post #53
harry8 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again beautifully condescending but that isn't really terribly convincing. Good to see you go right ahead with personal assumptions rather than engage with content because this tells me you are unable to do so. This kind of zero engagement while going straight to various kinds of subtle or less so ad-homonym attacks annoy me. They are contemptuous in all aspects of life. What is your precise claim here? I state there…

You started a flamewar and then perpetuated it. We ban accounts that do that. Would you mind reviewing the site guidelines and not doing that on HN? We're trying for better than that here. Also, we don't want this place to burn to a crisp, which is what eventually happens with flamewars. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

"Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

I reject the idea that I started a flame war. I felt I followed the guideline above and did it in the face of pjmlp being personal, dismissive and non-substantiative while pointing out that this was happening. I did my best but if you say I failed because he hit his mark and got a rise out of me then I accept that and apologise unreservedly. If you feel the need to ban me for this infraction then you must of course do so and I will be at peace with that decision. I am completely aware of making points with evidence that are extremely unfashionable in certain tech communities. HN at its best works well doing this as it has for me in the past. Not point scoring but actual discussion, substantiated with evidence where one can learn something. A million "+1" messages aren't worth reading after all. I'd say the same for "you're wrong" messages and "you've obviously got a personal issue" messages as we saw here.

I'm assuming pjmlp got a similar message from you, possibly a stronger one? It would seem odd to me otherwise but I suppose it isn't really of any consequence.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#58

Post by harry8 »

Intermernet wrote: post #55
harry8 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again beautifully condescending but that isn't really terribly convincing. Good to see you go right ahead with personal assumptions rather than engage with content because this tells me you are unable to do so. This kind of zero engagement while going straight to various kinds of subtle or less so ad-homonym attacks annoy me. They are contemptuous in all aspects of life. What is your precise claim here? I state there…

Take a deep breath and step back. I'd also give this advice to those you're arguing with. I for one am receptive to what you're saying, but I'd prefer it without the put-downs. This is a perfect example of an interesting debate that is being destroyed by personal attacks. P.S. I've upvoted your comments to try and prevent them from being flagged / killed.

I'm sure you're right. Thank you for that.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#59

Post by 153791098c »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #50

Does the Hurd team go around lecturing people who call it "Hurd" about how it's actually "GNU"/Hurd, how Hurd is the kernel and that's only one part, or is that only when the kernel wasn't their idea?

Hurd is a GNU project so it doesn't even really need a second mention, it only needs that mention because there is a competing kernel (Linux) that is used with the system. Otherwise it's just known as the GNU system. The kernel is pretty irrelevant for most users, we don't call it Android/Linux or Windows/NT for a reason. A kernel is not an operating system. Calling the whole OS Linux is both inaccurate and does not introduce anyone to the whole reason why the GNU project was started, which is having the freedom to really own and control your computer. Linus Torvalds doesn't give a shit about that and is happy with chromebooks as long as they use his kernel. Freedom is irrelevant to him and most of the "open-source" community. That should be reason enough to not call the entire system Linux.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#60

Post by beatgammit »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #50

Does the Hurd team go around lecturing people who call it "Hurd" about how it's actually "GNU"/Hurd, how Hurd is the kernel and that's only one part, or is that only when the kernel wasn't their idea?

I've been considering switching my servers to Alpine just to annoy the GNU people when they try to pull this.
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