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Google Engineer bails out student in jail

neil.fraser.name

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Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#61

Post by philwelch »

dtf wrote: post #57
philwelch wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. The underlying problem--criminality in some American cultures--is difficult and rather unique to the United States. Other rich countries are more culturally homogenous and hence suffer less criminality, though that'…

You seem to be saying that if we got rid of all the blacks and muslims we'd have far less crime. Did I misread you?

You seem to be accusing me of racism rather than offering a counterargument. Did I misread you?

Cultural homogeneity and its effects on crime transcend race. European immigration to the US during the 19th and 20th centuries were linked to crime as well. Usually, the dominant cultures in a heterogenous society will exclude and oppress minority populations, which leads to poverty and desperation. The problem really is cultural heterogeneity, not anybody's race. Acceptance of minority populations into the greater culture solves the problem much more effectively than any kind of antagonistic separatism, that's for sure.

Plus, assuming cultural heterogeneity leads to higher crime doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea. I happen to think the benefits of a diverse, heterogenous society outweigh the costs. That doesn't mean the costs don't exist.

EDIT: In particular, check this link out: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-t...

There are countries with majority Muslim populations with lower-than-average crime rates--check out Turkey and Tunisia, as do countries with majority black populations--check out Zambia, Zimbabwe, and Jamaica. Obviously Islam, or blackness, isn't the problem here.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#62

Post by ars »

MichaelApproved wrote: post #42
ars wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the policy of the bondsman, not the court. You basically pay the bondsman 10% of the bond in exchange for them posting the rest of it. Some people skip the hearing, and then the bondsman is out the money, so they keep the 10% to cover their risk. I don't know how the $50,000 number works - it seems the bond company is paying the rest of it, but I don't know what they get in return.

>>so they keep the 10% to cover their risk. The bondsman doesn't simply absorb the 90% loss if you skip, that's where Boba Fett comes in. I believe if the bondsman's bounty hunters catch up to you before the police do, he gets back the money that was put up.

Actually I believe the bondsman gets the money either way (cops or bounty hunter) - but the bondsman has to pay the bounty hunter, and the 10% helps cover that.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#63

Post by philwelch »

nostrademons wrote: post #58
philwelch wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. The underlying problem--criminality in some American cultures--is difficult and rather unique to the United States. Other rich countries are more culturally homogenous and hence suffer less criminality, though that'…

Many of those crimes are drug crimes, which are only a crime because we've chosen to make them so. It's not all that hard to change a law to make a certain group of people whose habits you dislike criminals.

There are definitely elements of this involved; I just challenge the idea that this is the whole story. If you're comparing the US to a country where drugs are legal, of course the US crime and incarceration rates are going to be higher on account of that fact. That's not the comparison being offered, though.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#65

Post by snippyhollow »

mixmax wrote: post #35
qq66 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 25% number seems pretty hard to believe, given that compared to all countries (not developed countries) America is very low-crime and America is 5% of the world's population. I suspect that either a) poorer countries are too cash-strapped to lock up dangerous criminals or b) that many poorer countries don't have reliable data on prisoner numbers.

"The United States' incarceration rate is, according to official reports, the highest in the world, at 737 persons imprisoned per 100,000 (as of 2005).[7] A report released in 2008 indicates that in the United States more than 1 in 100 adults is now confined in an American jail or prison.[8] The United States has 4% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.[9] " Source: http://en.wikip…

Just to be exact, wikipedia is not the "source". Click on the [7] and you'll get the source: Paige M. Harrison and Allen J. Beck, Ph.D. (November 2006). "Prisoners in 2005" (PDF). U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics. pp. 13.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#66

Post by _delirium »

philwelch wrote: post #55
_delirium wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply picking an arbitrary period of time over which crime rates happen to have declined, and claiming with no evidence that there's a causal factor that happens to nicely match some preconceived notions about "bad cultures", misframes the entire issue imo. If you look at actual studies on the subject, there is little to no scientific evidence that tougher incarceration policies reduce crime. There is about as much…

It's not exactly "arbitrary", since it corresponds to a number of anti-crime measures specifically aimed at incarcerating criminals for longer periods of time. For instance, 23 states, covering a majority of the American population, passed "three strikes" laws in the 1990's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_strikes_law For clarification on my thoughts about cultural heterogenity, please look at this comment: http:/…

There wasn't a particularly big increase in incarceration rates starting in the 1990s, though. The first big uptick was 1973-1983 or so, and then the pace accelerated in the mid-1980s, actually stabilizing by the late 1990s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Incarceration_rate_of_inma...

Why would the big increase in incarceration rates starting in the 1970s cause a decrease in crime only in the 1990s?

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#67

Post by swombat »

philwelch wrote: post #63
nostrademons wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of those crimes are drug crimes, which are only a crime because we've chosen to make them so. It's not all that hard to change a law to make a certain group of people whose habits you dislike criminals.

There are definitely elements of this involved; I just challenge the idea that this is the whole story. If you're comparing the US to a country where drugs are legal, of course the US crime and incarceration rates are going to be higher on account of that fact. That's not the comparison being offered, though.

Drugs are not legal in Denmark.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#69

Post by philwelch »

_delirium wrote: post #66
philwelch wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not exactly "arbitrary", since it corresponds to a number of anti-crime measures specifically aimed at incarcerating criminals for longer periods of time. For instance, 23 states, covering a majority of the American population, passed "three strikes" laws in the 1990's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_strikes_law For clarification on my thoughts about cultural heterogenity, please look at this comment: http:/…

There wasn't a particularly big increase in incarceration rates starting in the 1990s, though. The first big uptick was 1973-1983 or so, and then the pace accelerated in the mid-1980s, actually stabilizing by the late 1990s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Incarceration_rate_of_inma... Why would the big increase in incarceration rates starting in the 1970s cause a decrease in crime only in the 1990s?

It's an interesting and complicated question. If you look at the graph, the derivative of the incarceration rate actually peaks around 1990, which is still pre-three-strikes. And in retrospect, three-strikes laws wouldn't have increased the incarceration rate very much because someone convicted of three felonies is presumably someone who would have a high frequency of imprisonment anyway, and rounding that frequency to 1 wouldn't have as great an effect. (If you're in and out of prison frequently enough, enough that you're in prison 80% of the time, sentencing you to life only increases the prison population by 0.2 of a person by aggregate.)

Although, come to think of it, that might be the answer--a lot of the criminals we first imprisoned in the 70's ended up being recidivists, and cracking down on recidivism in the 90's through longer sentences and three strikes laws decreased crime when the recidivists ended up staying in prison, rather than leaving prison to commit more crimes every few years.

The sad part is, this might even apply to people who were unjustly imprisoned for drugs. Someone in prison on drug charges is going to be more likely to get involved in gangs while in prison, and hence become a more dangerous criminal when let out.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#70

Post by philwelch »

swombat wrote: post #67
philwelch wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely elements of this involved; I just challenge the idea that this is the whole story. If you're comparing the US to a country where drugs are legal, of course the US crime and incarceration rates are going to be higher on account of that fact. That's not the comparison being offered, though.

Drugs are not legal in Denmark.

Yes, that was roughly my point. If drugs were legal in Denmark, we'd be able to say "of course the US crime and imprisonment rates are higher than Denmark's because the US considers drug use to be a crime and Denmark doesn't". But, since drugs are illegal in Denmark, Danish drug dealers contribute to the Danish crime rate (and imprisonment rate, when caught) just as American drug dealers contribute to the American crime rate (and imprisonment rate, when caught).
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