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Google Engineer bails out student in jail

neil.fraser.name

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Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#51

Post by philwelch »

Groxx wrote: post #50
philwelch wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. The underlying problem--criminality in some American cultures--is difficult and rather unique to the United States. Other rich countries are more culturally homogenous and hence suffer less criminality, though that'…

> Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. Like this one?

This one isn't a prisoner because he hasn't been convicted.

In the US system, there's a distinction between jail (i.e. pre-trial detention) and prison (i.e. post-conviction incarceration).

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#52

Post by _delirium »

philwelch wrote: post #49
[deleted] wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

You're not telling the whole story though--of course incarceration rates are going to go up when crime goes up (though it's a lagging indicator), but the crime rate has been declining since the 1990's--or "over the last 20 years", as I put it. (2010-1990=20). Simply pointing out that crime rates haven't declined below 1965 levels yet misframes the entire issue.

Simply picking an arbitrary period of time over which crime rates happen to have declined, and claiming with no evidence that there's a causal factor that happens to nicely match some preconceived notions about "bad cultures", misframes the entire issue imo.

If you look at actual studies on the subject, there is little to no scientific evidence that tougher incarceration policies reduce crime. There is about as much evidence that they actually increase crime, in fact, depending on the conditions of incarceration and gang ties that that fosters.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#53

Post by Groxx »

philwelch wrote: post #51
Groxx wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. Like this one?

This one isn't a prisoner because he hasn't been convicted. In the US system, there's a distinction between jail (i.e. pre-trial detention) and prison (i.e. post-conviction incarceration).

True, though they both have massive effects on ones life and others' view of them (especially professionally). It's nearly as bad, especially after 7 months.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#54

Post by Confusion »

philwelch wrote: post #45
mixmax wrote: post #24

25% of the world population in jail is American. 737 out of 100.000 Americans are in jail, that's almost one out of a hundred. As a comparison Denmark has 59 out of 100.000 people in jail. And the number of Americans in jail has been rising steadily for the last 20 years. This is a pretty serious problem.

And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. The underlying problem--criminality in some American cultures--is difficult and rather unique to the United States. Other rich countries are more culturally homogenous and hence suffer less criminality, though that'…

  And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in 
  the US has dropped tremendously.
Crime rates in all Western countries have dropped over the last 20 years. More interestingly, the crime rate in the US does not significantly differ from that in other countries[1]. Even taking the statistics from [1] at face value (they are probably skewed by various different definitions for 'crime'), The Netherlands has the same crime rate as the US, yet the prison population is six times smaller (per capita)[2]. Considering the various other Western countries doesn't make that better. Your assertion that the US suffers from --criminality in some American cultures-- seems unfounded.

[1] http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-t...

[2] http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-pris...

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#55

Post by philwelch »

_delirium wrote: post #52
philwelch wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not telling the whole story though--of course incarceration rates are going to go up when crime goes up (though it's a lagging indicator), but the crime rate has been declining since the 1990's--or "over the last 20 years", as I put it. (2010-1990=20). Simply pointing out that crime rates haven't declined below 1965 levels yet misframes the entire issue.

Simply picking an arbitrary period of time over which crime rates happen to have declined, and claiming with no evidence that there's a causal factor that happens to nicely match some preconceived notions about "bad cultures", misframes the entire issue imo. If you look at actual studies on the subject, there is little to no scientific evidence that tougher incarceration policies reduce crime. There is about as much…

It's not exactly "arbitrary", since it corresponds to a number of anti-crime measures specifically aimed at incarcerating criminals for longer periods of time. For instance, 23 states, covering a majority of the American population, passed "three strikes" laws in the 1990's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_strikes_law

For clarification on my thoughts about cultural heterogenity, please look at this comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2036933

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#56

Post by Confusion »

qq66 wrote: post #26
mixmax wrote: post #24

25% of the world population in jail is American. 737 out of 100.000 Americans are in jail, that's almost one out of a hundred. As a comparison Denmark has 59 out of 100.000 people in jail. And the number of Americans in jail has been rising steadily for the last 20 years. This is a pretty serious problem.

That 25% number seems pretty hard to believe, given that compared to all countries (not developed countries) America is very low-crime and America is 5% of the world's population. I suspect that either a) poorer countries are too cash-strapped to lock up dangerous criminals or b) that many poorer countries don't have reliable data on prisoner numbers.

The '25%' number is a red herring and not worth debating. The US has over 6 times the number of inmates (per capita) as the average Western European country[1][2]. How could that be, other than because of a seriously fubared justice system?

[1] http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-pris...

[2] http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#57

Post by dtf »

philwelch wrote: post #45
mixmax wrote: post #24

25% of the world population in jail is American. 737 out of 100.000 Americans are in jail, that's almost one out of a hundred. As a comparison Denmark has 59 out of 100.000 people in jail. And the number of Americans in jail has been rising steadily for the last 20 years. This is a pretty serious problem.

And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. The underlying problem--criminality in some American cultures--is difficult and rather unique to the United States. Other rich countries are more culturally homogenous and hence suffer less criminality, though that'…

You seem to be saying that if we got rid of all the blacks and muslims we'd have far less crime. Did I misread you?

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#58

Post by nostrademons »

philwelch wrote: post #45
mixmax wrote: post #24

25% of the world population in jail is American. 737 out of 100.000 Americans are in jail, that's almost one out of a hundred. As a comparison Denmark has 59 out of 100.000 people in jail. And the number of Americans in jail has been rising steadily for the last 20 years. This is a pretty serious problem.

And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. The underlying problem--criminality in some American cultures--is difficult and rather unique to the United States. Other rich countries are more culturally homogenous and hence suffer less criminality, though that'…

Many of those crimes are drug crimes, which are only a crime because we've chosen to make them so. It's not all that hard to change a law to make a certain group of people whose habits you dislike criminals.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#59

Post by jrockway »

philwelch wrote: post #44
jrockway wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can be suspected of anything. Let's have a trial, a real trial, and then worry about punishment after he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. (And by real trial, I mean a jury of Americans, not some bullshit military tribunal. Yeah, yeah, he signed some papers that said he can't have a real trial. Fuck that. This is America, not Saudi Arabia.)

Manning is a soldier charged with violating the UCMJ, and should be court-martialed like any other soldier charged with violation of military law. (This is distinct from the "military tribunals" established for "enemy combatants" during the Bush administration.) The duties and obligations of a soldier don't change just because he's become a cause celebre on the internet in the course of allegedly violating his duties…

How many of these service members are openly gay?

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#60

Post by philwelch »

Confusion wrote: post #54
philwelch wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. The underlying problem--criminality in some American cultures--is difficult and rather unique to the United States. Other rich countries are more culturally homogenous and hence suffer less criminality, though that'…

And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Crime rates in all Western countries have dropped over the last 20 years. More interestingly, the crime rate in the US does not significantly differ from that in other countries[1]. Even taking the statistics from [1] at face value (they are probably skewed by various different definitions for 'crime'), The Netherlands has the…

This is where the lack of controlled experimentation makes the data harder to read. To match the Dutch imprisonment rate, the US would have to release some 84% of its prison population, or in other words, to not have imprisoned those people to begin with. But if we did that, the crime rate would be different because, presumably, at least some of those people would have gone on to commit crimes!

I'll readily concede that at least half, maybe 60% of the US prison population is only locked up for drug offenses, and that legalizing drugs by the end of this week won't affect the rates of other crimes[1]. 84% seems high.

[1] I couldn't easily find any good breakdown of what all these people are imprisoned for, and would appreciate it. That said, as much I'm in favor of drug legalization, drug possession and sale is still a crime, and it's also a crime in nearly every other country you're comparing crime rates to.

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