The Coming Boeing Bailout? • Hacker News Board

Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?

#81

Post by grenoire » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

fendy3002 wrote: post #36

nabla9 wrote: post #16

Governments should have predatory practice towards shareholders in these cases. If company can't be allowed to fail (strategically important or government regulated sector like banking) there should be 'fluid bankruptcy' option. When they default or fail their obligations, the next day the government owns them without operations being disrupted. Shareholders lose everything overnight and any private debt would have s…

Government in my country will use that to take the shares, then do corruption from inside and fattening their wallets. Im against shareholder is immune because of bailout, but I don't think government handling business can be better.

Agreed, as little trust as you might have in stockholders, hold not much more for your government.

Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?

#82

Post by iguy » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #46

willyt wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m guessing that it’s considered a strategically important business to US defence? The US government would presumably be unwilling to allow all those teams of specialist engineers and technicians to be disbanded and all the facilities and assets to be sold off as would happen when a normal business fails.

Maybe we shouldn’t outsource tasks that are strategically important to the nation’s defense (assuming for the sake of argument that they are.)

Outsource implies that it was once an in-house operation, but I don't think this was ever true.

However, allowing mergers until there are only one or two companies which can make strategically important things means you have painted yourself into a corner. You can bet that these companies will be well aware that they are immortal, and behave in ways which exploit this. You will not get the efficiencies often ascribed to private enterprise.

Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?

#83

Post by w1nst0nsm1th » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

kazen44 wrote: post #53

FigBug wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that pretty much what happened with GM? The stocks and bonds were all wiped out. And then the new GM was owned by the government / union until they did an IPO a few years later?

the same basically happened with the ABN AMRO bank in the Netherlands. Goverment did a bailout and turned the bank into a state owned enterprise until recently.

With Fortis, in Belgium, the government bought back the bad loans and handed the remaining of the whole bank to BNP Paribas for 1€...

There have been some kind of "understanding" betweens the finance minister of that time and a big belgian investor having stakes in BNP Paribas.

Yseterday the same minister was elected President of the european Council.

Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?

#84

Post by leemailll » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

xmichael999 wrote: post #63

leemailll wrote: post #25

Boeing still has more than 5000 planes orders to be delivered ( http://investors.boeing.com/investors/fact-sheets/default.as... ), I don't think they will try to change any time soon when things seem going well albeit 737max.

The cancellations haven't officially taken place, but you can be damn sure everyone other than committed 737 fleets like Southwest have unofficially already cancelled their orders of MAX's. Air Canada is the perfect example, it's the first time to introduce 737's to their fleet - they are waiting for the dust to settle but you can be damn sure the 737's they already own will be sold and Boeing will largely give them…

I’m not trying to defend Boeing and I also think the problem for 737max is a serious blow to boeing, but I suspect the only chance for massive cancellations of its orders is when ffa designates it as a new airworthiness type. Even that might depend on contract details. What also make the cancellations less likely, in my opinion is that its competitors, the A320neo has a backlog of more than 10 years at the current production rate. And the smaller a220, the former bombardier cseries, has a backlog of almost 400 planes. Besides, at 2019 France air show, IAG put an order of 200 737max in a letter of intent which is quite surprising and strange

Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?

#85

Post by sslayer » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:32 PM UTC

This article didn't seem to have any point to it other than bashing. I didn't see any hard facts pointing to the necessity of a bailout, rather a crude opinion piece designed to manipulate stock prices?

Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?

#86

Post by elsurudo » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:35 PM UTC

petermcneeley wrote: post #49

wmeredith wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IF?! When is the last time you performed a Google search? The real non-paid results aren’t even above the fold.

Are u refering just to ads or can you actually pay to get higher rank directly?

Ads, but they mimic the look of regular results

Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?

#87

Post by sn41 » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

xmichael999 wrote: post #75

CydeWeys wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite pathetic, given that the actuarial value of a life is actually around $5-10M (in the US anyway). They're going to end up paying out a lot more money in the lawsuits though, so we don't know the final total number yet.

Let's not forget where the two max's crashed. Ethiopia and Indonesia. Some bean counters already decided the value of a life in these, "shit hole countries." I wouldn't be surprised if they literally took the cost of living index in the US and compared it to these countries and proudly patted themselves on this back when they came up with this amazing cost savings... I hope the individuals, airlines and the countries…

Ethiopian Airlines is a Star Alliance member. It must be one of the premier customers of Boeing, and was one of the first airlines to introduce the Dreamliner and 737 MAX into their fleets. If word gets around that this is how they treat their good customers, this itself might be a nail in the coffin for Boeing.

Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?

#88

Post by kgermino » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #65

PaulHoule wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the 2nd generation E-Jets and the A220 beat the pants of the 737 with the caveat that they are smaller planes that carry fewer passengers. They also are smaller planes that have better comfort than the 737 in most respects; it is like the Japanese cars of the 1970s which were big on the inside and small on the outside compared to American cars of the time. You have to fly it to believe it. I could see these eati…

The crazy thing is that Boeing hasn't designed a new clean-sheet small jet since 1967, when the 737 came out. Prior to that they were iterating on a pretty rapid cadence, with the 707, 717, 720, and 727, and then they just got stuck in an absolute rut and have been increasingly paying the consequences as the 737 no longer stacks up favorably against the much newer clean-sheet designs put out by their competitors. To…

It’s worth noting that even though the 717 was first released in the late 90’s it isn’t a case of Boeing innovating since it’s just a rebadged MD-95 which was developed by McDonnell-Douglas

Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?

#89

Post by selimthegrim » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 4:05 PM UTC

leemailll wrote: post #84

xmichael999 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cancellations haven't officially taken place, but you can be damn sure everyone other than committed 737 fleets like Southwest have unofficially already cancelled their orders of MAX's. Air Canada is the perfect example, it's the first time to introduce 737's to their fleet - they are waiting for the dust to settle but you can be damn sure the 737's they already own will be sold and Boeing will largely give them…

I’m not trying to defend Boeing and I also think the problem for 737max is a serious blow to boeing, but I suspect the only chance for massive cancellations of its orders is when ffa designates it as a new airworthiness type. Even that might depend on contract details. What also make the cancellations less likely, in my opinion is that its competitors, the A320neo has a backlog of more than 10 years at the current pr…

If there is a220 backlog why is there still FUD about assembling them in Mobile?

Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?

#90

Post by wsxcde » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 4:09 PM UTC

mannykannot wrote: post #64

This article repeats the claim that the MCAS software was faulty, but is there any evidence of coding-level errors? There is the systems engineering failure of not comparing the two available AofA sensors to detect faults, if not going for at least triple-redundancy, but the root cause there is not a coding error. It has been suggested that high AofA readings should have been rejected unconditionally, but that approa…

> This article repeats the claim that the MCAS software was faulty, but is there any evidence of coding-level errors?

No, there isn't. The Verge (and IIRC other sources) have reported that the crashes were due to failures in the angle of attack (AoA) sensors. No program in the world is going to give you correct output with garbage input.

Verge link: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/2/18518176/boeing-737-max-cr...