The surveillance is less than worthless when schools are so constrained in their ability to meter out discipline. I went to one of the first surveillance schools in my state and I was bullied relentlessly, despite the video evidence the school was reluctant to suspend my attacker. This may be because my bully was black and from the hood and my school was sued by the NAACP to accept more black kids and keep the suspension rate 'racially equitable' - which amounted to different punishments depending on the race of the rule breaker.
Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State
121–130 of 169 posts
Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State
#122Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…
This is horrifying.
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State
#123The paywalls on all major news sites are driving me crazy. Not because they cost money (I am willing to pay), but because it's not practical to buy an online subscription to 10+ major news sites individually. Is there a service that lets you pay 1 monthly fee for a subscription to the top 10 major (paywalled) news sites?
I know it's annoying, but please don't take HN threads on this off-topic tangent. The situation sucks, but we all know how it sucks, all these discussions are the same, and the rule here has been settled for years: if there's a workaround, it's ok. Users usually post workarounds in the thread.
This is in the FAQ at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html and there's more explanation here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989
https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State
#124Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…
thanks for the real life anecdote. just like in startups, its helpful to hear from the actual users instead of what some armchair critics feel is happening. however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell
The lesson learned from zero tolerance tolerance policies is that there's no reason to hold back if you're both going to get in trouble.
Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State
#125Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…
Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…
I would like to propose another reason as to why I think it's bad. I seriously believe that the constant surveillance of people through their phones is starting to cause problems. It's now awkward to not leave the house without your phone. What if someone needs you? What if you need to reach someone? To feel safe, people need to feel constantly within arms reach of help. Monitoring children this way, is essentially easing them into the same mindset. Someone is always watching what's happening. When they step out into the real world, disconnecting from that is sure to be jarring, and what I really fear is that uneasiness will push more people into believing we need to be under a surveillance state.
Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State
#126Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…
This makes sense. I am also ok with surveillance cameras whose footage gets only used when something happened and otherwise gets discarded. But cameras that feed into a system that constantly analyzes the video is pretty creepy and has potential for a lot of abuse. So let’s go old fashioned and set up a camera with a VCR by no internet connection or analytics capability.
Even a VCR tape gets put into cold storage and can be converted into a digital stream any time later.
Data is extremely persistent and it's very easy to forget this.
Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State
#127Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ? Adults definitely behave differently when they know they are monitored (I personally know I do), so I wonder what kind of mental health issues would hide in those children if they are monitored at all times... I also feel like using this to prevent bullying or suicides is the wrong option, as educating kids the…
> Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ?... I don't have any data or anything, but I think that brain development is not even complete until well after 12th grade in humans. In particular, I think the ability to self regulate is compromised. So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts, so they would know all about br…
>I don't have any data or anything, but I think that brain development is not even complete until well after 12th grade in humans. In particular, I think the ability to self regulate is compromised.
You are right on the money, myelin sheath[0] development isn't complete until 25 - 30 years of age and is critical for executive function[1].
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myelin
[1]https://www.verywellfamily.com/myelination-process-3288324
Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State
#128Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ? Adults definitely behave differently when they know they are monitored (I personally know I do), so I wonder what kind of mental health issues would hide in those children if they are monitored at all times... I also feel like using this to prevent bullying or suicides is the wrong option, as educating kids the…
> Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ?... I don't have any data or anything, but I think that brain development is not even complete until well after 12th grade in humans. In particular, I think the ability to self regulate is compromised. So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts, so they would know all about br…
>monitor children who they know very well will likely not change their behaviors due to being monitored
Is that the case?
Whether or not some rulebreaking will happen on-camera doesn't preclude the possibility that children do change their behavior while being monitored, nor prove that constant monitoring will have no effect on their psyche.
Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State
#129Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…
Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…
> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched.
We definitely know that kids change their behavior when being watched, but most of the time we call that "parenting".
Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because the teacher's job should be to teach, not to be a social worker.
What do you think teachers are actually teaching? One of the very, very important skills kids learn is how to be socialized - how to behave with others in a social setting, how to be quiet and pay attention when that is appropriate, how to settle conflicts. These are all skills you can and should be learning in school. This is what teachers do, they don't just drill you on the three Rs.
There's a difference between teaching kids to socialize and serving as a de facto social worker.