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Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

nytimes.com

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Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#81

Post by saagarjha »

panzagl wrote: post #58
everdrive wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it helps, this is a very realistic portrayal of how privacy is degraded over time. Invading privacy has all sorts of practical applications. You can fight crime more effectively, and measure trends, and generally be more effective at all sorts of capitalism and statecraft. But, problems, and risks just pile up over time. Just think of what we could do for just one small sacrifice!

But what privacy is there in a classroom? Theoretically the teacher could capture the same information by being more observant.

No teacher can watch the entire classroom constantly and unfailingly.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#82

Post by panzagl »

mikepurvis wrote: post #71
panzagl wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yeah, but calling a parent in and saying 'you need to stop partying until 3am with your boyfriend of the week so Timmy can get some sleep and not be an impulsive little monster with no respect for his female teacher' does not go as well as you'd think.

I don't see how this scenario is changed by having video of the child's misbehaviour.

Because discipline can be made to stick- Timmy can be suspended and when Mom comes in to say it can't be his fault, because that would imply it was her fault and she's never been held responsible for her actions before, oh well too bad video doesn't lie. Otherwise admin backs down about 50% of the time.

If you want to point out that this doesn't help Timmy, I'd agree. It does help the other 29 kids in the class, their parents, the teacher, and admin though.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#83

Post by skybrian »

everdrive wrote: post #78
panzagl wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what privacy is there in a classroom? Theoretically the teacher could capture the same information by being more observant.

A wise teacher can offer a bit more dignity by choosing what they notice and draw attention to, or not.

Perhaps the same is true when choosing how to use video recordings?

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#84

Post by saagarjha »

bilbo0s wrote: post #52
ralusek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…

> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched... Maybe adults do, but I seriously doubt children do. Maybe some child dev experts on HN could chime in here, but my understanding was that brain development is not complete until well after 18 years in humans. Not only that, but the ability to self regulate is particularly compromised in children…

Children know to hide behavior from disapproving adults: they're not as stupid or underdeveloped as you think they are.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#85

Post by elliekelly »

panzagl wrote: post #58
everdrive wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it helps, this is a very realistic portrayal of how privacy is degraded over time. Invading privacy has all sorts of practical applications. You can fight crime more effectively, and measure trends, and generally be more effective at all sorts of capitalism and statecraft. But, problems, and risks just pile up over time. Just think of what we could do for just one small sacrifice!

But what privacy is there in a classroom? Theoretically the teacher could capture the same information by being more observant.

But the teacher doesn’t create a permanent record of everything they observe.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#86

Post by panzagl »

giaour wrote: post #68
panzagl wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are good questions below about lifetime of the video, etc. and while I can just state that everything is fine, the real answer is that schools in the US are not the closed organizations that are implied by a lot of the response here. School administration is 3 people, the district has a couple dozen. Budgets are public information, board meetings are open to all, and getting an agenda item to address concerns i…

I don't think this addresses the concerns being replied to. Teaching is incredibly difficult and time consuming, and just like teachers do not have the time or expertise to also be full time social workers for their students, they also do not have the time or expertise to ensure that surveillance data about their students is appropriately secured and purged. The same applies to local school administration officials,…

There are laws in place to address public release of info about minors. A lot of schools require a parent's signature before they'll post a public picture of a student, even if just captured incidentally. My wife's school is pretty paranoid about this stuff, mostly because of things like custody issues, restraining orders, etc. So a legal framework is in place, one with a little more teeth behind it than your typical EULA.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#87

Post by losteric »

bilbo0s wrote: post #52
ralusek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…

> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched... Maybe adults do, but I seriously doubt children do. Maybe some child dev experts on HN could chime in here, but my understanding was that brain development is not complete until well after 18 years in humans. Not only that, but the ability to self regulate is particularly compromised in children…

Kids are naive, not stupid. They will ignore the camera until someone gets caught... from then on Big Brother will be lurking in the shadows of their mind.

I grew up in an environment like that, my paranoid parents were a fan of security cameras all over the house because we grew up in a "risky" area. The cameras definitely led to a feeling of being mentally caged in, always being watched and worried about doing something wrong.

The Black Mirror "Arkangel" episode is a good commentary on omnipresent childhood surveillance...

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#88

Post by elliekelly »

panzagl wrote: post #40
Arubis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers. Whew. That's a lot of labeling! And the solution is to build evidence to be used against these tiny criminals. Rather than just presume the kids are little shits on purpose and recording them to prove it, why not ask the kid what's going on at home? I'd bet real money that "lack of discipline" maps pretty…

Well, yeah, but calling a parent in and saying 'you need to stop partying until 3am with your boyfriend of the week so Timmy can get some sleep and not be an impulsive little monster with no respect for his female teacher' does not go as well as you'd think.

Perhaps you could find a way to articulate your point about irresponsible parents without so much sexism. Or even better, without any sexism.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#89

Post by panzagl »

behringer wrote: post #67
saiya-jin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes yes it would be all nice if we would completely revamp school system (and why stop there) into something marvelous, but back in reality where it won't probably happen in our lifetimes, some hacks may make unbearable life if public school teacher slightly more bearable.

The problem is these teachers are part of the problem. A teacher that allows her class to be surveilled 24/7 is a shitty teacher, period.

Lol, how about 6/5?
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