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Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

nytimes.com

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Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#51

Post by [deleted] »

ralusek wrote: post #19
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…

[deleted]

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#52

Post by bilbo0s »

ralusek wrote: post #19
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…

>There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched...

Maybe adults do, but I seriously doubt children do.

Maybe some child dev experts on HN could chime in here, but my understanding was that brain development is not complete until well after 18 years in humans. Not only that, but the ability to self regulate is particularly compromised in children.

Now I could be wrong. And, as I said, I welcome the child dev guys to chime in here, but I think these people are literally recording children who, because of human neurobiology, are unlikely to regulate due to the recording.

And I think the people doing the recording know that.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#53

Post by ionised »

bilbo0s wrote: post #32
thatfrenchguy wrote: post #16

Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ? Adults definitely behave differently when they know they are monitored (I personally know I do), so I wonder what kind of mental health issues would hide in those children if they are monitored at all times... I also feel like using this to prevent bullying or suicides is the wrong option, as educating kids the…

> Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ?... I don't have any data or anything, but I think that brain development is not even complete until well after 12th grade in humans. In particular, I think the ability to self regulate is compromised. So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts, so they would know all about br…

> I don't have any data or anything, but I think that brain development is not even complete until well after 12th grade in humans. In particular, I think the ability to self regulate is compromised.

12th grade is seriously lowballing it as well.

The human brain doesn't stop developing until well into our mid-twenties, and there is still some plasticity even after that.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#54

Post by panzagl »

panzagl wrote: post #15
UweSchmidt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, there is a camera in the classroom itself, always on? The footage is saved somewhere and can be viewed by who knows who or what algorithm, judging by whatever standards the person or algorithmy applies at that time? ...justified by "solving" various conflicts in the classroom, conflicts that have root causes like large class sizes, social issues, stressful environments, overbearing parents, disrespected teacher…

The footage is only kept at the school. My wife's job is not to be the total arbiter of social justice for her students, it is to provide them with an education.

There are good questions below about lifetime of the video, etc. and while I can just state that everything is fine, the real answer is that schools in the US are not the closed organizations that are implied by a lot of the response here. School administration is 3 people, the district has a couple dozen. Budgets are public information, board meetings are open to all, and getting an agenda item to address concerns is not that difficult. This is the benefit to our education system not being centrally directed by some Federal organization who would be all too happy to have the 'FAANG Classroom Panopticon' installed so they can say they're 'doing something' about whatever the issue dujour is.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#55

Post by bko »

ralusek wrote: post #19
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…

> There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched

Then why do many students and young people post photo evidence of them engaging in illegal activity on social media? I don't think it would make much of a difference. Besides we're on camera in most places of commerce and in large cities, pretty much all the time.

> Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot always be substantiated with hard evidence... Some of the best teachers I had would've been fired for what they taught, or allowed students to do.

I think you're romanticizing what goes on in a modern US school. No one is going to go after children for small mischief. They don't go after them now because its just not worth it not because they can't catch them doing petty infractions. As for the teachers, for every great teacher having controversial and important discussions with their students, there are 9 that just roll in a TV to watch a movie about once a week.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#56

Post by behringer »

panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

This is horrifying.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#57

Post by greedo »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #45
panzagl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The footage is only kept at the school. My wife's job is not to be the total arbiter of social justice for her students, it is to provide them with an education.

How can you ensure the footage is kept "at the school" (as if that was sufficiently limiting the exposure of the footage)? Who has physical access? Is the surveillance system cloud based? How is the school's security? Are her superiors legally allowed to watch the footage to evaluate performance? Could those overbearing aggressive parents eventually demand access to the footage, and worsen the whole problem? Are the…

We worry today about incriminating twitter/FB posts derailing careers. What will happen when people can retrieve your childhood and show that OMG you dissected frogs?

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#58

Post by panzagl »

everdrive wrote: post #48
panzagl wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one actually watches the video, unless something happens. And this is an elementary classroom- resolution of petty squabbles means 28 kids don't get to learn while 2 others yell 'he did it first'. They can be beasts to each other at recess.

If it helps, this is a very realistic portrayal of how privacy is degraded over time. Invading privacy has all sorts of practical applications. You can fight crime more effectively, and measure trends, and generally be more effective at all sorts of capitalism and statecraft. But, problems, and risks just pile up over time. Just think of what we could do for just one small sacrifice!

But what privacy is there in a classroom? Theoretically the teacher could capture the same information by being more observant.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#59

Post by greedo »

tptacek wrote: post #50
Arubis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers. Whew. That's a lot of labeling! And the solution is to build evidence to be used against these tiny criminals. Rather than just presume the kids are little shits on purpose and recording them to prove it, why not ask the kid what's going on at home? I'd bet real money that "lack of discipline" maps pretty…

Because the teacher's job should be to teach, not to be a social worker.

Teachers in K-12 have never been focused on solely dispensing academic knowledge. Acclimation, acculturation, socialization; the list goes on of what they've always been expected to do. My MIL always said that her job (K-4) was to teach the little monsters how to be civilized. If they learned the three Rs, that was a bonus.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#60

Post by greedo »

magduf wrote: post #6
asdf333 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for the real life anecdote. just like in startups, its helpful to hear from the actual users instead of what some armchair critics feel is happening. however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell

>however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell 1) They did that a lot back in the "old days" anyway, since it was away from other people 2) bullies usually have poor impulse control and don't think immediately about the consequences of their actions, so they frequently won't think about the cameras, so at least some of the t…

Bullies are extremely effective at detecting and determining safe times and places to bully others. My tormentors waited til right after school, til I left school property. Then it was Mad Max time to make it home...
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