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Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

nytimes.com

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Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#21

Post by panzagl »

magduf wrote: post #6
asdf333 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for the real life anecdote. just like in startups, its helpful to hear from the actual users instead of what some armchair critics feel is happening. however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell

>however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell 1) They did that a lot back in the "old days" anyway, since it was away from other people 2) bullies usually have poor impulse control and don't think immediately about the consequences of their actions, so they frequently won't think about the cameras, so at least some of the t…

I don't know how much it even really decreases outbursts in the classroom- this is at the elementary level so all the kids are pretty impulsive. But the reality is that it gives teachers a tool to make admin and parents address the behaviors without just dismissing it.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#22

Post by alistairSH »

opwieurposiu wrote: post #14

Currently trying to decide how to school my kids ages 3yr and 1yr. Public, private or homeschool. Parents who have been there, How did you choose?

Homeschool: Not a viable option for us. Both of us worked, with high salaries, but not high enough to easily forgo either income. Plus, neither of us felt qualified to teach some middle-school and many high-school level courses - so we worried about a transition from home-school into a school during adolescence.

Private: We didn't see an upside in our region. Public schools are excellent. The local private schools don't perform materially better (once you adjust for public schools being required to serve low-income and special needs students). Downtown private schools would have had an upside, but at great expense ($35k+/year) - we thought saving that money for college was a better idea.

Public - we chose to live in an area with excellent public schools (both because of the schools, but also proximity to jobs, liked the area, etc).

Public schools have their problems. But most can be mitigated by "voting with your feet", paying attention to local politics, and being actively engaged with the school.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#23

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Well of course, your wife gets a huge benefit out of it. However the kids are the ones who are paying the cost.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#24

Post by csours »

If you ask the government to do something impossible, such as provide COMPLETE safety and security, they will try to do that. I think the news media bears some responsibility in this regard, as they always blame or call out whatever agency that fails to maintain safety and security, thus leading to severe measures to try to mitigate the previous failure.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#25

Post by throwayEngineer »

ralusek wrote: post #19
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…

As a kid who was bullied, i would have loved to have evidence.

Totally insane to think that "privacy" should take priority over safety. This doesn't change freedom, this only stops injustices.

This sounds like a Luddite's take on modern security cameras.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#26

Post by Arubis »

rayiner wrote: post #8
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

I wish we had these as kids. The number one problem with education in the US is the lack of discipline in the class room. Teachers spend all their time babysitting problem children instead of helping everyone else learn. Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers. Cameras in the classroom could go a long way to helping schools build record evidence t…

> Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers.

Whew. That's a lot of labeling! And the solution is to build evidence to be used against these tiny criminals.

Rather than just presume the kids are little shits on purpose and recording them to prove it, why not ask the kid what's going on at home? I'd bet real money that "lack of discipline" maps pretty closely to "lack of a stable home environment".

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#27

Post by DocTomoe »

asdf333 wrote: post #4
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

thanks for the real life anecdote. just like in startups, its helpful to hear from the actual users instead of what some armchair critics feel is happening. however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell

> however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell

That is easily solveable: Video surveillance in unused stairwells and bathrooms (ideally individual stalls).

What, suddenly people have problems with that? A panopticum only works when the threat of surveillance is ever-present.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#28

Post by throwayEngineer »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #11
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Wait, there is a camera in the classroom itself, always on? The footage is saved somewhere and can be viewed by who knows who or what algorithm, judging by whatever standards the person or algorithmy applies at that time? ...justified by "solving" various conflicts in the classroom, conflicts that have root causes like large class sizes, social issues, stressful environments, overbearing parents, disrespected teacher…

What are the advantages of not having security cameras? A hacker can't look at clothed kids learning?

Throwing more money at a problem doesn't always help. Not to mention, more money is a fantasy.

Your wishes of utopia are fun, but I can't imagine anyone responsible for schools could take it seriously.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#29

Post by ceejayoz »

magduf wrote: post #6
asdf333 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for the real life anecdote. just like in startups, its helpful to hear from the actual users instead of what some armchair critics feel is happening. however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell

>however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell 1) They did that a lot back in the "old days" anyway, since it was away from other people 2) bullies usually have poor impulse control and don't think immediately about the consequences of their actions, so they frequently won't think about the cameras, so at least some of the t…

#2 sounds like natural selection that'll result in more effective bullies.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#30

Post by DocTomoe »

artificial wrote: post #7
LocalH wrote: post #2

It's interesting the parallels that can be drawn to tobacco addiction , of all things. Hook 'em while they're young, and they won't think anything about expanding the surveillance when they're in power, because it's what they're used to, so why not if it can protect people?

Why not examine it from another perspective? Risk and reward? Are more people served by it or harmed? For example look at how useful dashcams and bodycams are to situations! Oh and an anecdote! I was parking at work and the building security cameras witnessed the collision (driver was on their phone and tboned me) making the insurance claim open and shut. We have security camera inside as well with displays throughou…

Then you get filmed with something that looks awfully like the joint they found in the trashcan on that grainy security footage, and you're in prison for the next five years, lose your job, your home and your family.

It is easy to opt for more surveillance until it comes around to bite you.

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